In looking back on the season, we have been involved with at least 4 games OOC and 2 games in conference that I feel we should have won.

OOC:
Weber
Portland St.
Valpo
BYU

MWC:
CSU
WYO (Home game)

Why did we lose? I think each game has a few different reasons(injuries, coaching, personnel, etc) and each could be argued one way or the other. I’m not here to argue the reasons or individual games. But, if we had won those games, we would be 20-6 (9-4).

Now, I don’t believe winning those 6 games really changes anything. BYU may have the biggest impact, especially with the fan base. But none is a season changer. We would be 3rd in conference nipping at the heels of BSU and Nevada. We would have an RPI~50.

Assuming we won those 6 games and are playing like we currently are, what would be your impressions of the team? Coach? Future?




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Without the pathetic start to the Utah game we could. After the 19-2 start we won the rest of the game. Just can't bury yourself that deep.

I guess my question is, if we won those 6 games, does it change anything for you? If you wanted to see Duryea leave, would you still think he needs to go? If you are in the wait and see camp for Duryea, does this make you feel like he’s done what he needs to? Does anything change?


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It would change a lot.....but if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle.

Every team has woulda, shoulda, coulda games.


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Wins in those six games would have went a long way for me. The last little stretch has made a difference.

2004AG wrote:It would change a lot.....but if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle.

Every team has woulda, shoulda, coulda games.


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Again, I’m not arguing why we lost those games or anything. If we had won those games, would you still be down on Duryea? Would you still be down on the state of Aggie basketball? There has been the sentiment that we need to be finishing top 3 in the league. Some have said we need to be competing and beating the top teams of the league. There have been various other things said.

I have laid out 6 specific games that aren’t unreasonable to have won and if we had won those games, many of things people have said we need to do would be done or would be within reach of being accomplished. So would it change anything for you?

I haven’t been able to get an honest answer to this question yet. I think the reason is because almost no matter what happens with this team, many fans are not going to be happy. They aren’t happy due to the way we play basketball, who we have playing basketball. I think it would show rather than being concerned with results, some here are more concerned with personal grudges against Duryea or against our new style of play.

So the question remains: would it change anything for you? How? Why?


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scotlandog wrote:

2004AG wrote:It would change a lot.....but if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle.

Every team has woulda, shoulda, coulda games.


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Again, I’m not arguing why we lost those games or anything. If we had won those games, would you still be down on Duryea? Would you still be down on the state of Aggie basketball? There has been the sentiment that we need to be finishing top 3 in the league. Some have said we need to be competing and beating the top teams of the league. There have been various other things said.

I have laid out 6 specific games that aren’t unreasonable to have won and if we had won those games, many of things people have said we need to do would be done or would be within reach of being accomplished. So would it change anything for you?

I haven’t been able to get an honest answer to this question yet. I think the reason is because almost no matter what happens with this team, many fans are not going to be happy. They aren’t happy due to the way we play basketball, who we have playing basketball. I think it would show rather than being concerned with results, some here are more concerned with personal grudges against Duryea or against our new style of play.

So the question remains: would it change anything for you? How? Why?


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You must have missed the very first line of my post.


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So the question, if I’m not totally off base and if I am feel free to correct me, is essentially asking the following:
Would a return towards some semblance of being a winning program, a successful in-state program, and a competitor for a regular season conference title change my outlook on the season and the coaching staff?
Yes. I would then be in favor of giving Duryea another year to improve his offense, rejuvenate the fanbase, and change his recruiting trajectory. I would hope Felton would be let go but doubt that would happen.

TheConspirator wrote: ↑

February 11th, 2018, 8:04 pm

So the question, if I’m not totally off base and if I am feel free to correct me, is essentially asking the following:
Would a return towards some semblance of being a winning program, a successful in-state program, and a competitor for a regular season conference title change my outlook on the season and the coaching staff?
Yes. I would then be in favor of giving Duryea another year to improve his offense, rejuvenate the fanbase, and change his recruiting trajectory. I would hope Felton would be let go but doubt that would happen.

Here's a challenge. One post without calling for someone to be fired.

If we were 20-6 I'm a big defender of Tim. We are not so I'm not.

TheConspirator wrote:So the question, if I’m not totally off base and if I am feel free to correct me, is essentially asking the following:
Would a return towards some semblance of being a winning program, a successful in-state program, and a competitor for a regular season conference title change my outlook on the season and the coaching staff?
Yes. I would then be in favor of giving Duryea another year to improve his offense, rejuvenate the fanbase, and change his recruiting trajectory. I would hope Felton would be let go but doubt that would happen.

So at least some common ground to start from. I think that would put us into “some semblance of being a winning program” as well. I picked those 6 games because I think those games are all within reach or wouldn’t take much to have a different outcome. So how far from winning those 6 games are we?





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GordoAggie wrote: ↑

February 11th, 2018, 9:07 pm

If we were 20-6 I'm a big defender of Tim. We are not so I'm not.

^ This. The whole premise of the OP is flawed. Here are the games we are postulating we could have won (together with the point differential) to get us to a hypothetical 20-6 record:

Weber - 6 points
Portland St. - 4 points
Valpo - 7 points
BYU - 9 points
CSU - 9 points
WYO - 8 points

Apparently, 9 points losses were within our grasp to win. If that's the case, wins of equal to or less than 9 points could similarly have been losses. That includes 8 games. So allow me to turn the question around. If we would have lost all 8 of those "loseable" games and stood at 6-20 right now, what would be our feelings towards TD?

utaggies wrote:

GordoAggie wrote: ↑

February 11th, 2018, 9:07 pm

If we were 20-6 I'm a big defender of Tim. We are not so I'm not.

^ This. The whole premise of the OP is flawed. Here are the games we are postulating we could have won (together with the point differential) to get us to a hypothetical 20-6 record:

Weber - 6 points
Portland St. - 4 points
Valpo - 7 points
BYU - 9 points
CSU - 9 points
WYO - 8 points

Apparently, 9 points losses were within our grasp to win. If that's the case, wins of equal to or less than 9 points could similarly have been losses. That includes 8 games. So allow me to turn the question around. If we would have lost all 8 of those "loseable" games and stood at 6-20 right now, what would be our feelings towards TD?

I’m sure no different than they are now. Can we call for him to be fired more?

Anyways, you missing the point of the discussion. Some are saying how incredibly bad we are and some are saying we are ok, it’s just injuries this season. Some are saying they won’t watch Aggie b-ball ever again until Duryea is fired. So, I’m trying to gauge how much we need to do before some people change their opinions and then see what would it realistically take to do that. I would also like people to see that it wouldn’t take much more to have what they consider a good season. Like you said also, it wouldn’t take much to have a worse season. But as most people currently think Aggie b-ball is horrible already, I don’t think we need to delve into how we can become worse. Do you? Soooo, back to my original point and question. You have any thoughts or do you just want to say Duryea should be fired like every other thread?




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What if we lost 5 or 6 games that we have won? We'd be 10-16. Now how would you feel?

Would I feel better about this season and maybe even the trajectory of the program with those extra wins? Perhaps. However, for me the larger issue is that we can go back over the past 6-7 years and point out far too many of these type of "should have won" games. It is the same movie over and over. We have failed to maintain our competitiveness versus conference teams that we used to dominate and we find ourselves on the losing end of too many OOC games that we should be winning if we were a solid program with good leadership.

It's hard to say that a few extra wins this year would be enough to make me think the recent past could be considered irrelevant. I already feel like our current record has been a bit of smoke and mirrors so even more victories may make me start think someone somewhere truly has a lucky rabbit foot up their wazoo.

Aglicious wrote: ↑

February 12th, 2018, 12:23 am

It's hard to say that a few extra wins this year would be enough to make me think the recent past could be considered irrelevant. I already feel like our current record has been a bit of smoke and mirrors so even more victories may make me start think someone somewhere truly has a lucky rabbit foot up their wazoo.

For example?

Here it is in a nutshell we hired a guy nobody else would. Tim sat on his hands when Stew stopped recruiting. Tim also has ran off our best talent and he says it’s injuries. And he does not think we can compete in this great league. Get a guy who can win bottom line. Like any job perform or your done. Tim can prove most of wrong if he could get a few more great wins. We will see.


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Usurossco wrote:Here it is in a nutshell we hired a guy nobody else would. Tim sat on his hands when Stew stopped recruiting. Tim also has ran off our best talent and he says it’s injuries. And he does not think we can compete in this great league. Get a guy who can win bottom line. Like any job perform or your done. Tim can prove most of wrong if he could get a few more great wins. We will see.


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Who did Tim run off?

I haven't heard him use injuries as an excuse.

He has brought in higher rated recruits than Stew. He has failed at getting bigs, but guard and wing recruiting has been very, very good.

I'm not defending him, I'd just like few examples of what your talking about.


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scotlandog wrote: ↑

February 11th, 2018, 11:30 pm

I’m sure no different than they are now. Can we call for him to be fired more?

Actually, yes. I've been a fence-rider primarily because Duryea has pulled in the two best recruits in a decade, and with Colleen on this team and a one or two fewer injuries, we would likely be contending for a conference title. While Duryea may be partially to blame for Colleen's exit, I don't have enough of the facts to blame him entirely. I haven't been thrilled with the Ags' inconsistent game play and what seems to be a lack of structure and flow to the offense at times, but I recognize that there are successful non-Stew systems, and it is certainly possible Duryea could be successful with healthy personnel (Colleen plus say Stall/Janicek/Miller). I just wish he and his teams would have shown more improvement in his third year at the helm.

Which takes us to your hypothetical. If we were 20-6/9-4, that would definitely be marked improvement, and I would be off the fence on the side of keeping Duryea for at least another year. If, on the other hand, we were 6-20, I would be off the fence on the other side.

While a few vocal fans on here regularly post that Duryea should be fired, I think it is far from the majority.

He ran off Collete. listen every post game show he talks about injuries. He said we have more injuries than any other team in Basketball. Just to be clear that’s making excuses and he needs to grow up. He is constantly saying the Mountain West is a huge step up for a program like ours. Those things don’t matter it’s about winning period. No excuses. We have been in the league long enough to get some players. If Stew could not get players he developed the ones he did get. Tim has ruined several players who I swear could play in high school. Watch the Weber game again we could not even dribble the ball pathetic. Unguarded like 350 turnovers and a whole lot of complaining. Not much basketball. Win or go home it’s clear.


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Usurossco wrote: ↑

February 12th, 2018, 9:30 am

He ran off Collete. listen every post game show he talks about injuries. He said we have more injuries than any other team in Basketball. Just to be clear that’s making excuses and he needs to grow up. He is constantly saying the Mountain West is a huge step up for a program like ours. Those things don’t matter it’s about winning period. No excuses. We have been in the league long enough to get some players. If Stew could not get players he developed the ones he did get. Tim has ruined several players who I swear could play in high school. Watch the Weber game again we could not even dribble the ball pathetic. Unguarded like 350 turnovers and a whole lot of complaining. Not much basketball. Win or go home it’s clear.


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This reads like a Charlie Kelly-written speech.

Usurossco wrote:He ran off Collete. listen every post game show he talks about injuries. He said we have more injuries than any other team in Basketball. Just to be clear that’s making excuses and he needs to grow up. He is constantly saying the Mountain West is a huge step up for a program like ours. Those things don’t matter it’s about winning period. No excuses. We have been in the league long enough to get some players. If Stew could not get players he developed the ones he did get. Tim has ruined several players who I swear could play in high school. Watch the Weber game again we could not even dribble the ball pathetic. Unguarded like 350 turnovers and a whole lot of complaining. Not much basketball. Win or go home it’s clear.


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Do you believe Tim needs to spend more time teaching dribbling?


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He didn't run Colleen off, even so it was one player.

If you don't think injuries play a factor in the team we've fielded then you are not watching. I've heard him talk about injuries but I haven't heard him make excuses. I didn't normally listen to the poat game show so maybe he does make excuses.


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JonnyCienPesos wrote:

Usurossco wrote:He ran off Collete. listen every post game show he talks about injuries. He said we have more injuries than any other team in Basketball. Just to be clear that’s making excuses and he needs to grow up. He is constantly saying the Mountain West is a huge step up for a program like ours. Those things don’t matter it’s about winning period. No excuses. We have been in the league long enough to get some players. If Stew could not get players he developed the ones he did get. Tim has ruined several players who I swear could play in high school. Watch the Weber game again we could not even dribble the ball pathetic. Unguarded like 350 turnovers and a whole lot of complaining. Not much basketball. Win or go home it’s clear.


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Do you believe Tim needs to spend more time teaching dribbling?


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This board

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So no one really has answered the question. We all kind of agreed that getting to 20 wins would bring some semblance of a winning program and the question was, what do we need to do to get there?

So, like I said from the beginning, I’m not arguing about the 6 games. That’s not the point. I even agreed , we could of lost 6 more games. So let’s move on past that and get to what does it take to win those type of games next year? If all you have to say is fire Duryea then I think that point has been thoroughly covered. If you have some other insights and part of it involves Duryea, that’s fine. So let’s have some real discussion...


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To answer the original question:
I'm turning into much more of a casual fan these days. (Busy w/ my own kid's sports, kinda down on recent basketball trends in general, trying not to add superfluous stress/agony to my life, etc) If we were at 20 wins right now, I would definitely be off the fence, supporting Duryea, and happy that Aggie basketball is finally back. If we were at 8 wins, I'd be certain we'd have a new coach next season and be checked out until then.

As it is, I won't say that Duryea has won me over, but I fully expect him to be back next year. A few months ago, I was almost as certain that he would be fired.

scotlandog wrote: ↑

February 12th, 2018, 3:22 pm

So no one really has answered the question. We all kind of agreed that getting to 20 wins would bring some semblance of a winning program and the question was, what do we need to do to get there?

Oh, "what do we need to do to get there" was the question? I'm not sure where "there" is, so your new question is difficult to answer. I answered the compound question I THOUGHT you asked:

scotlandog wrote: ↑

February 12th, 2018, 3:22 pm

I guess my question is, if we won those 6 games, does it change anything for you? If you wanted to see Duryea leave, would you still think he needs to go? If you are in the wait and see camp for Duryea, does this make you feel like he’s done what he needs to? Does anything change?

No I am saying I saw most of these players in high school and they could dribble and play pretty good. Something happened when they showed up at Utah State under Tim. Hint it’s not the competition or injuries it is a horrible coach is what I am saying. He tried to break them down and destroy bad habits. It backfired bad. First he lost Colette and then most of the team rebelled for two years. He has a few games to get his act together or the alumni who actually donate will make sure he gone trust me we are fed up with him and every single assistant as well.


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Usurossco wrote:No I am saying I saw most of these players in high school and they could dribble and play pretty good. Something happened when they showed up at Utah State under Tim. Hint it’s not the competition or injuries it is a horrible coach is what I am saying. He tried to break them down and destroy bad habits. It backfired bad. First he lost Colette and then most of the team rebelled for two years. He has a few games to get his act together or the alumni who actually donate will make sure he gone trust me we are fed up with him and every single assistant as well.


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So....he tried to destroy bad habits? How dare he!


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scotlandog wrote: ↑

February 12th, 2018, 3:22 pm

So no one really has answered the question. We all kind of agreed that getting to 20 wins would bring some semblance of a winning program and the question was, what do we need to do to get there?

So, like I said from the beginning, I’m not arguing about the 6 games. That’s not the point. I even agreed , we could of lost 6 more games. So let’s move on past that and get to what does it take to win those type of games next year? If all you have to say is fire Duryea then I think that point has been thoroughly covered. If you have some other insights and part of it involves Duryea, that’s fine. So let’s have some real discussion...


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How can your question be answered without discussion of firing Duryea, or only part of it being about Duryea? The head coach is responsible for the success or failure of the program. He's responsible for coaching, recruiting, hiring assistants, giving out scholarships. All of it. Some want to blame players for lack of success, but the head coach is the guy who decides what players to bring in. No discussion about how to win more games can be had without it being mainly about the head coach. So to win more games without firing Duryea, he has to improve his coaching and improve his recruiting. But if all the years he's been here, especially the last 6, are any indication, that isn't going to happen. It's much more likely that, if he stays, we'll continue with a mediocre/poor basketball team winning a few more than we lose, with the possibility of a 20 win season once in a great while when the MW is having a down year.

I’m saying it didn’t work the proof is in the record. He sucks and even he knows it.


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Usurossco wrote:I’m saying it didn’t work the proof is in the record. He sucks and even he knows it.


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There is a compelling argument to be made for firing Duryea, you however, are not making it.


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SeattleAg wrote:To answer the original question:
I'm turning into much more of a casual fan these days. (Busy w/ my own kid's sports, kinda down on recent basketball trends in general, trying not to add superfluous stress/agony to my life, etc) If we were at 20 wins right now, I would definitely be off the fence, supporting Duryea, and happy that Aggie basketball is finally back. If we were at 8 wins, I'd be certain we'd have a new coach next season and be checked out until then.

As it is, I won't say that Duryea has won me over, but I fully expect him to be back next year. A few months ago, I was almost as certain that he would be fired.

This pretty much sums up my position at this point; more casual with regards to USU basketball, kinda down overall on the NCAA basketball trends, busy with kid sports, and not wanting to add unnecessary stress from watching Jekyll and Hyde games a couple times a week. It’s much simpler to come here and take an unemotional post game pulse.
As far as Duryea, I too expect he will be back for year 4 and I wish him and the team all the success in the world. However, I do believe games like Boise etc are really an indication of the program’s upper band with him at the helm. Regardless of recruiting, the talent the program does have is/will be wasted as long as TD is in charge because he can’t get that talent to peak performance. They’ll have their flashes but another coach is needed to get to the sustained level of success in the MWC that many fans got used to in the Big West and WAC under Stew.


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OKAggie wrote: ↑

February 12th, 2018, 6:44 am

Aglicious wrote: ↑

February 12th, 2018, 12:23 am

It's hard to say that a few extra wins this year would be enough to make me think the recent past could be considered irrelevant. I already feel like our current record has been a bit of smoke and mirrors so even more victories may make me start think someone somewhere truly has a lucky rabbit foot up their wazoo.

For example?

For me, it started with the OOC schedule. We have always seemed to have one or two low ranked opponents mixed in each year that are essentially exhibition-type level games....but actually count toward our record. This year however, we seemed to fill our every available spot with these type teams because we were left scrambling after withdrawing from the Diamond Head Classic. Between that issue and volunteering to be lamb in the PK80 tourney it left us with a schedule filled with teams like Miss. Valley St., New Hampshire, Life Pacific College, and Youngstown St. These victories still make up almost 30% of our current "W"s.

Now some may argue that even top ranked teams have a few opponents like this on the schedule as warm-ups or breathers in between big match ups. While that is true, top ranked teams also regularly beat the teams they are measured against. They beat their rivals more times than not, they have OOC victories to point to and prove their worth, and they are usually found at the top of their conference standings. USU lost to every regularly scheduled in-state team this season, in OOC they lost to a pretty poor Valpo team and also to a mediocre Portland St. team. Of course no one is making a claim that USU is a top ranked team and I only point this out to help get a better picture of what kind of team we really are.

Despite all the struggles early on I want to believe the Aggies are an improving squad but the few solid performances in conference play seem to be overshadowed by the number of eggs laid. There are games like the last couple of home games vs. BSU or vs. UNM where I really felt like the Aggies outplayed their opponent and were the better team. Unfortunately, these great victories are wiped out by games like the one they had in between at WYO where they are blown out and look completely outclassed. The games at SDSU, at UNR, home vs. CSU, and home vs. WYO are more examples of games where we never really measured up. So once you take out the great games and the stinkers, what are we left with? Well, 2 victories over the dregs of the MWC in AFA and SJSU and then 2 wins over Fresno St. and a win over UNLV. Those latter 3 games are the ones that immediately come to mind when I think "smoke & mirrors". In both games against Fresno St. we had numerous fortuitous bounces and calls go our way for whatever reason that helped us squeak by with wins. The game at UNLV still stands out as the biggest anomaly though. We played out of our skulls for basically the entire game (which is not the norm) and we happened to get UNLV on the night that may have been one of their worst performances of the season.

Our record would indicate we are a middle of the road team but I would argue our record is a bit inflated with 6 wins against teams with an RPI of 240+ (many of them 300+) and another against an NAIA team....half our wins! Now consider the 3 very lucky close victories against Frenso St. twice and UNLV and our 14-12 record starts to appear a bit like it was done with smoke and mirrors. We are on pace to likely finish with a record of 16-15, with 9 of those victories coming against teams with a 200+ RPI or NAIA, zero wins against in-state schools, and our best OOC win vs. Northeastern.

Soooo . . . . . . smoke and mirrors?