Michigan State

This forum is for Football related topics only. Other topics will be moved to the appropriate forum.
LKGates
Posts: 3206
Joined: December 13th, 2010, 10:07 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon
Has liked: 91 times
Been liked: 142 times
Contact:

Michigan State

Post by LKGates » May 16th, 2018, 10:33 am

NBC news is reporting that MSU has reached a settlement with the 332 women and girls who were sexually assaulted by Larry Nassar. The settlement is for $500 Million. :shock: I wonder where they are going to come up with the money, how long they have to pay it off, and what impact this will have on the budget of the university as a whole, and especially on their athletic department.


Feel free to follow me on Twitter: @AggieLarry

User avatar
flying_scotsman2.0
Posts: 769
Joined: January 23rd, 2018, 12:29 pm
Has liked: 186 times
Been liked: 69 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by flying_scotsman2.0 » May 16th, 2018, 11:05 am

Who is getting all the money? Are all the ladies going to split the $500M?



Yossarian
Posts: 2379
Joined: November 14th, 2010, 11:56 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Michigan State

Post by Yossarian » May 16th, 2018, 11:05 am

Isn't that like slapping a $500M fine on the entire citizenry of the state of Michigan? It is a public school that receives state funding, right? You may say that it will come from private donors - what if the donors refuse to pay it? The people of Michigan will have to chip in for something they had no control over and certainly did not support. It is more effective to go after the individuals involved, in my opinion (and I guess they have with the criminal case against Nasser) - I just don't like suing a public agency and expecting it to be paid with public funds.



User avatar
thegreendalegelf
Posts: 448
Joined: August 18th, 2017, 3:26 pm
Has liked: 133 times
Been liked: 20 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by thegreendalegelf » May 16th, 2018, 11:41 am

And yet the NCAA says that MSU didn't break any NCAA rules so there will be no sanctions. What?!?!



oleblu111
Posts: 1088
Joined: November 3rd, 2010, 4:34 pm
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 86 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by oleblu111 » May 16th, 2018, 12:35 pm

To expect a state agency to protect people, and suing them when they fail is the right thing to do IMHO.



LKGates
Posts: 3206
Joined: December 13th, 2010, 10:07 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon
Has liked: 91 times
Been liked: 142 times
Contact:

Re: Michigan State

Post by LKGates » May 16th, 2018, 12:50 pm

The victims need to be compensated. That only comes out to a little over $1 Million per victim. If someone sexually assaulted me, I'd want a heck of a lot more than that. So, given that, who pays the money? The perp doesn't have that kind of cash. It has to fall on the institution, and the hammer needs to fall first and hardest on the departments and people that were closest. Everyone who knew, or should have known, should be fired, and if possible, their positions not filled.

Will the taxpayers of Michigan be hurt by this? Unfortunately, yes. That's inevitable. But Michigan State, and particularly the athletic department, should take the biggest hit.


Feel free to follow me on Twitter: @AggieLarry

Yossarian
Posts: 2379
Joined: November 14th, 2010, 11:56 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Michigan State

Post by Yossarian » May 16th, 2018, 1:11 pm

oleblu111 wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 12:35 pm
To expect a state agency to protect people, and suing them when they fail is the right thing to do IMHO.

I agree - and the number of people that are affected by this tragedy (either financially or emotionally/psychologically) is huge.

Something so simple as requiring that a nurse be in the room when all "exams" were being performed on these poor girls could have saved a mountain of grief and expense. I have to think having a nurse on call during this period would have been a lot cheaper than $500M. This whole thing sucks. I can't imagine being a parent to one of these girls.



GameFAQSAggie
Posts: 4512
Joined: November 3rd, 2010, 11:10 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 44 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by GameFAQSAggie » May 16th, 2018, 1:22 pm

There goes a chunk of freakboy's salary.



utaggies
Posts: 2931
Joined: November 3rd, 2010, 12:25 pm
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 56 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by utaggies » May 16th, 2018, 2:11 pm

Attorneys will take 30% - 40% off the top and the 300 some odd victims will get about $500,000 each.
Last edited by utaggies on May 16th, 2018, 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.



User avatar
2004AG
Posts: 5049
Joined: November 16th, 2010, 11:42 am
Has liked: 10 times
Been liked: 56 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by 2004AG » May 16th, 2018, 2:14 pm

oleblu111 wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 12:35 pm
To expect a state agency to protect people, and suing them when they fail is the right thing to do IMHO.
You're not wrong, but the state agency doesn't suffer, the citizens of Michigan do, who had nothing to do with it. :noidea:



oleblu111
Posts: 1088
Joined: November 3rd, 2010, 4:34 pm
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 86 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by oleblu111 » May 16th, 2018, 2:59 pm

If you fire all those connected with the scandal that should send a message. I have had investments that lost me revenue because of being sued because of wrong doing. I had no knowledge of wrong doing, but I lost money because of it.



User avatar
Jjoey53
Posts: 1301
Joined: January 9th, 2018, 4:28 pm
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 68 times

Michigan State

Post by Jjoey53 » May 16th, 2018, 5:57 pm

Firing and possibly bringing charges against the guilty parties is better than tax payer money being doled out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



utaggies
Posts: 2931
Joined: November 3rd, 2010, 12:25 pm
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 56 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by utaggies » May 17th, 2018, 1:43 am

Jjoey53 wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 5:57 pm
Firing and possibly bringing charges against the guilty parties is better than tax payer money being doled out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Hmmmm? If an employee of a company commits crimes or misdeeds while on "the clock" of his/her employer, the employer will be held liable for its employee's actions. If a pizza company proclaims it will deliver its pizza in 30 minutes or it's free and the frantic pizza driver hits and kills or injures a pedestrian in a crosswalk trying to beat the clock, the company will be made party to the crime and held responsible. It would be considered one of the risks of the business. Whether the business is private (a pizza company) or public (Michigan St.) makes no difference although public institutions do have some immunity protection in certain situations that private companies don't.

If Nassar had committed his crimes on his own time independent of MSU, their facilites and their payroll, the university's liability would change. That, however, is not the case, especially early on in the 1990's.

It's important to note that USA Gymnastics has not settled. Also, some of the victims who will receive the settlement (if this actually gets done) are husbands of the now women who were abused as girls under Nassar's care.



User avatar
Roy McAvoy
Posts: 4626
Joined: November 2nd, 2011, 1:30 pm
Has liked: 66 times
Been liked: 152 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by Roy McAvoy » May 17th, 2018, 7:13 am

Dang, we're going to get killed.



Blue Sage
Posts: 472
Joined: January 28th, 2015, 6:24 pm
Has liked: 7 times
Been liked: 10 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by Blue Sage » May 30th, 2018, 11:35 pm

It just doesn't stop for Michigan State:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatod ... /636012002



kluegs17
Posts: 2
Joined: June 11th, 2018, 12:56 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Michigan State

Post by kluegs17 » June 11th, 2018, 1:57 pm

LKGates wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 12:50 pm
The victims need to be compensated. That only comes out to a little over $1 Million per victim. If someone sexually assaulted me, I'd want a heck of a lot more than that. So, given that, who pays the money? The perp doesn't have that kind of cash. It has to fall on the institution, and the hammer needs to fall first and hardest on the departments and people that were closest. Everyone who knew, or should have known, should be fired, and if possible, their positions not filled.

Will the taxpayers of Michigan be hurt by this? Unfortunately, yes. That's inevitable. But Michigan State, and particularly the athletic department, should take the biggest hit.
Greetings, Michigan State Fan / Alum here. I'm looking forward to the game in the Fall and thought I'd check out your forum. I think some of the comments in this forum are a bit misinformed so I'd like to respectfully clarify a few things:

1) There is not a single MSU Alum / Fan / Student who defends Larry Nassar or MSU's handling of that situation. MSU deserves all of the public scrutiny and backlash it receives for this situation. This will deservedly be a stain on the university for a long time to come. However, it seems that the general public or casual observer (particularly those who think this is an MSU Athletics / NCAA issue instead of a College of Medicine issue) are not aware of the facts:

2) It is important to understand that Larry Nassar was not an employee of the athletic department, he was an employee of the MSU College of Osteopathic Medicine and worked in the medical clinic on campus. He was also the team doctor for USA Gymnastics. In fact, he is the doctor who helped Kerri Strug off of the floor in the 1996 Atlanta Olympic Games after her incredible gold medal winning vault on an injured ankle. Because of his stature as the the USA Gymnastics doctor, gymnasts from all over the country came to see him...whether at MSU, the Karolyi Ranch in Texas, International USAG Events, private gymnastics clubs (Twistars), and even at his home. Furthermore, he gave presentations at seminars to the medical community on "pelvic floor" procedures to fix back pain, which he was widely known for. It is this procedure which he would pervert to abuse so many women. He used this procedure as an explanation to get through the Title IX proceedings and point back to his "expertise" in this field. Just to show you how devious / calculated he was, he assaulted over 150 of those in the lawsuit with a parent in the room and they did not know their daughter had been assaulted.

3) As it relates to MSU Athletics...just to give an idea of scale, of the 300+ females in the lawsuit, I believe only 13 (still inexcusable) were MSU Students (Primarily gymnasts and I believe a couple of females on the rowing team). The MSU gymnastics coach (Kathy Klages, who was a personal friend of Nassar) reportedly first received a complaint in 1997. It does not appear she took the appropriate reporting channels at that time. She will get her day in court and the MSU community wants her to fry. In terms of top administration at MSU, as of now there is no evidence they were aware of these allegations until the Title IX proceedings. Other than that, many of the victims never even stepped foot on campus but saw him at USAG events or elsewhere. Since MSU agreed to allow Nassar to do work for USAG, MSU is on the hook (and deservedly so) as his primary employer.

4) As much negativity as MSU deserves, the media has deflected attention away from Nassar and tried to conflate this with past / unrelated issues involving revenue sports for clicks. Mark Dantonio and Tom Izzo have never even met Larry Nassar, yet the headlines show all of their pictures together as if they are somehow related. It is one of the most disgusting displays of character defamation I've ever seen. The victims in the Nassar case and those who enabled a monster like that to slip through the cracks for so many years deserve the attention. However, in 2018, the media will stir the pot however they please regardless of the facts. The ESPN OTL piece was one of the most disingenuous pieces of reporting I've ever seen. They basically reported old news from MSU Football and Basketball that had been handled over a 10+ year period through the appropriate channels (our legal system) and presented it as being new or swept under the rug. They also omitted any information that didn't support their narrative.

5) Is the NCAA investigating MSU? Yes, they are...primarily because we had a notoriously arrogant Board Member publicly scoff at the idea of an NCAA investigation possibility, which essentially forced the NCAA to say it would investigate. More importantly for MSU, the FBI is investigating what took place.

Anyway, I could type on and on about this but this has already been long enough. hope that made some sense and provided some clarity...



User avatar
flying_scotsman2.0
Posts: 769
Joined: January 23rd, 2018, 12:29 pm
Has liked: 186 times
Been liked: 69 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by flying_scotsman2.0 » June 11th, 2018, 2:27 pm

kluegs17 wrote:
June 11th, 2018, 1:57 pm
LKGates wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 12:50 pm
The victims need to be compensated. That only comes out to a little over $1 Million per victim. If someone sexually assaulted me, I'd want a heck of a lot more than that. So, given that, who pays the money? The perp doesn't have that kind of cash. It has to fall on the institution, and the hammer needs to fall first and hardest on the departments and people that were closest. Everyone who knew, or should have known, should be fired, and if possible, their positions not filled.

Will the taxpayers of Michigan be hurt by this? Unfortunately, yes. That's inevitable. But Michigan State, and particularly the athletic department, should take the biggest hit.
Greetings, Michigan State Fan / Alum here. I'm looking forward to the game in the Fall and thought I'd check out your forum. I think some of the comments in this forum are a bit misinformed so I'd like to respectfully clarify a few things:

1) There is not a single MSU Alum / Fan / Student who defends Larry Nassar or MSU's handling of that situation. MSU deserves all of the public scrutiny and backlash it receives for this situation. This will deservedly be a stain on the university for a long time to come. However, it seems that the general public or casual observer (particularly those who think this is an MSU Athletics / NCAA issue instead of a College of Medicine issue) are not aware of the facts:

2) It is important to understand that Larry Nassar was not an employee of the athletic department, he was an employee of the MSU College of Osteopathic Medicine and worked in the medical clinic on campus. He was also the team doctor for USA Gymnastics. In fact, he is the doctor who helped Kerri Strug off of the floor in the 1996 Atlanta Olympic Games after her incredible gold medal winning vault on an injured ankle. Because of his stature as the the USA Gymnastics doctor, gymnasts from all over the country came to see him...whether at MSU, the Karolyi Ranch in Texas, International USAG Events, private gymnastics clubs (Twistars), and even at his home. Furthermore, he gave presentations at seminars to the medical community on "pelvic floor" procedures to fix back pain, which he was widely known for. It is this procedure which he would pervert to abuse so many women. He used this procedure as an explanation to get through the Title IX proceedings and point back to his "expertise" in this field. Just to show you how devious / calculated he was, he assaulted over 150 of those in the lawsuit with a parent in the room and they did not know their daughter had been assaulted.

3) As it relates to MSU Athletics...just to give an idea of scale, of the 300+ females in the lawsuit, I believe only 13 (still inexcusable) were MSU Students (Primarily gymnasts and I believe a couple of females on the rowing team). The MSU gymnastics coach (Kathy Klages, who was a personal friend of Nassar) reportedly first received a complaint in 1997. It does not appear she took the appropriate reporting channels at that time. She will get her day in court and the MSU community wants her to fry. In terms of top administration at MSU, as of now there is no evidence they were aware of these allegations until the Title IX proceedings. Other than that, many of the victims never even stepped foot on campus but saw him at USAG events or elsewhere. Since MSU agreed to allow Nassar to do work for USAG, MSU is on the hook (and deservedly so) as his primary employer.

4) As much negativity as MSU deserves, the media has deflected attention away from Nassar and tried to conflate this with past / unrelated issues involving revenue sports for clicks. Mark Dantonio and Tom Izzo have never even met Larry Nassar before, but the headlines show all of their pictures together as if they are somehow related. The victims in the Nassar case and those who enabled a monster like that to slip through the cracks for so many years deserve the attention. However, in 2018, the media will stir the pot however they please. The ESPN OTL piece was one of the most disingenuous pieces of reporting I've ever seen. They basically reported old news from MSU Football and Basketball that had been handled over a 10+ year period through the appropriate channels and presented it as being new or swept under the rug They also omitted any information that didn't support their narrative.

5) Is the NCAA investigating MSU? Yes, they are...primarily because we had a notoriously arrogant Board Member publicly scoff at the idea of an NCAA investigation possibility, which essentially forced the NCAA to say it would investigate. More importantly for MSU, the FBI is investigating what took place.

Anyway, I could type on and on about this but this has already been long enough. MSU has also done a poor job in handling the fallout of the situation...hence the pressure for the previous president to resign. I hope that made some sense and provided some clarity...
Thanks for stopping by! I appreciate the view from an MSU fan's perspective. Obviously it's really a sucky situation for everyone involved. I hope everything gets straightened out and it doesn't hit the school/taxpayers too hard.

I'm excited for the game this fall. How is MSU looking? What are their strengths and weaknesses?



kluegs17
Posts: 2
Joined: June 11th, 2018, 12:56 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Michigan State

Post by kluegs17 » June 11th, 2018, 4:16 pm

LKGates wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 12:50 pm

Thanks for stopping by! I appreciate the view from an MSU fan's perspective. Obviously it's really a sucky situation for everyone involved. I hope everything gets straightened out and it doesn't hit the school/taxpayers too hard.

I'm excited for the game this fall. How is MSU looking? What are their strengths and weaknesses?
Yes, it's not a good situation for anyone and is a very sensitive issue despite how fairly you try to treat all parties involved.

MSU should have a pretty high ceiling this year. We had one of the youngest teams in FBS last year and finished 10-3, 2nd in Big Ten East Division. We return nearly every one of our major contributors. We are led by junior QB Brian Lewerke who is a true dual threat QB (2800 Yards Passing 20 TD, 7 INT / 560 Yards Rushing, 5 TD). Our top RB, LJ Scott, decided to forego the NFL draft to return for his senior season. He is NFL talent but has had recent trouble with ball security. Felton Davis and Cody White are our top two wide receivers from 2017 and both return. We also get both Ohio State and Michigan at home this year.

On the defensive side of the ball, We are led by Junior LB Joe Bachie. He is a flat out high motor guy and is all over the field. We tend to play press man coverage defensively and leave our corners on an island. Our corners have matured and our scheme should be very effective this year.

Our special teams have been a bit of a struggle. We rarely get touchbacks on kickoffs and our punting game leaves a bit to be desired. Our freshman kicker was 15/19 fg last year and we lack a dynamic return man.

Hopefully we will see some USU fans at the game, it should be a great atmosphere under the lights. What are your expectations for USU in 2018?



User avatar
flying_scotsman2.0
Posts: 769
Joined: January 23rd, 2018, 12:29 pm
Has liked: 186 times
Been liked: 69 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by flying_scotsman2.0 » June 12th, 2018, 8:41 am

kluegs17 wrote:
June 11th, 2018, 4:16 pm
LKGates wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 12:50 pm

Thanks for stopping by! I appreciate the view from an MSU fan's perspective. Obviously it's really a sucky situation for everyone involved. I hope everything gets straightened out and it doesn't hit the school/taxpayers too hard.

I'm excited for the game this fall. How is MSU looking? What are their strengths and weaknesses?
Yes, it's not a good situation for anyone and is a very sensitive issue despite how fairly you try to treat all parties involved.

MSU should have a pretty high ceiling this year. We had one of the youngest teams in FBS last year and finished 10-3, 2nd in Big Ten East Division. We return nearly every one of our major contributors. We are led by junior QB Brian Lewerke who is a true dual threat QB (2800 Yards Passing 20 TD, 7 INT / 560 Yards Rushing, 5 TD). Our top RB, LJ Scott, decided to forego the NFL draft to return for his senior season. He is NFL talent but has had recent trouble with ball security. Felton Davis and Cody White are our top two wide receivers from 2017 and both return. We also get both Ohio State and Michigan at home this year.

On the defensive side of the ball, We are led by Junior LB Joe Bachie. He is a flat out high motor guy and is all over the field. We tend to play press man coverage defensively and leave our corners on an island. Our corners have matured and our scheme should be very effective this year.

Our special teams have been a bit of a struggle. We rarely get touchbacks on kickoffs and our punting game leaves a bit to be desired. Our freshman kicker was 15/19 fg last year and we lack a dynamic return man.

Hopefully we will see some USU fans at the game, it should be a great atmosphere under the lights. What are your expectations for USU in 2018?
USU has had a rough few years. Five years ago we expected to compete with everyone on our schedule. We had close, close losses to Auburn, Wisconsin, Oklahoma, etc. for a few years in a row. Over the past three years we have started performing as expected in money games with blowout losses to Wisconsin, Washington, and USC (I think, I'm too lazy to look it up). I think our expectation is to get blown out at MSU, but our fan expectation is to get back to a point where we can compete with anyone.

Our best player is probably our kicker. He was a Lou Groza award finalist last year. I think he only missed two field goals before the bowl game last year. Then he ended with a bang by missing four in the bowl game.

We've got a decent young quarterback, Jordan Love, who won the starting job halfway through the season last year. Our O-line looks to be improved, but you'd have to ask some of the more knowledgeable posters about personnel up front. We also return two of our top receivers in Tarver and Nathan. It is also the first season in a long time that we've had an offensive coordinator return for a second year, so hopefully the investment in a certain system will pay off.

Defensively, I don't know what's going on. We had a couple of big transfers come in, specifically one on the Dline that I know of. We lost a couple of senior players in the secondary, so there may be some holes back there.

I wouldn't worry too much about an upset this year. I doubt this game is really close at all after halftime. However, I think most of our fans will not be happy with the season if we win less than 8 games. We have a favorable schedule in the Mt. West, BYU was bad last year, but they may be improved. Boise State will be good, because that's what they do. But realistically, USU could pull in a 10-win season. I can't wait for the season to start. This game should be fun.



User avatar
El Sapo
Posts: 421
Joined: November 27th, 2017, 1:32 pm
Has liked: 17 times
Been liked: 9 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by El Sapo » June 12th, 2018, 2:38 pm

I bet the payoff to the women, if any will be less than 10K each. As a group and or individually they will settle for much less than the court ruling. The attorneys on the other hand will collect some redonkulous amount.



User avatar
ChicAggie
Posts: 2545
Joined: November 3rd, 2010, 1:18 pm
Location: Chicago
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 229 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by ChicAggie » June 13th, 2018, 12:22 pm

El Sapo wrote:
June 12th, 2018, 2:38 pm
I bet the payoff to the women, if any will be less than 10K each. As a group and or individually they will settle for much less than the court ruling. The attorneys on the other hand will collect some redonkulous amount.
That's a ridiculous and uninformed statement. The $500 million amount was determined by settlement, not a court ruling that will be appealed. Early estimates are that each plaintiff will likely receive somewhere between $250,000 and $2.5 million. At most, $165 million of the $500 million settlement will go to the lawyers. Yes that is high, but it is likely the best case scenario for the lawyers.


"Good is the enemy of great.” ~ Jim Collins

User avatar
brownjeans
Flatulent
Posts: 12866
Joined: November 3rd, 2010, 10:21 am
Has liked: 33 times
Been liked: 128 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by brownjeans » June 13th, 2018, 12:54 pm

2004AG wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 2:14 pm
oleblu111 wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 12:35 pm
To expect a state agency to protect people, and suing them when they fail is the right thing to do IMHO.
You're not wrong, but the state agency doesn't suffer, the citizens of Michigan do, who had nothing to do with it. :noidea:
Such it is whenever any government is sued.

If the justice is measured out properly the citizens of Michigan will follow by voting representatives who will legislate lasting change - but justice must also be served. What tool, other than money, is there for justice when government fails? Do the people have a responsibility for their government?



User avatar
2004AG
Posts: 5049
Joined: November 16th, 2010, 11:42 am
Has liked: 10 times
Been liked: 56 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by 2004AG » June 13th, 2018, 1:23 pm

brownjeans wrote:
2004AG wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 2:14 pm
oleblu111 wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 12:35 pm
To expect a state agency to protect people, and suing them when they fail is the right thing to do IMHO.
You're not wrong, but the state agency doesn't suffer, the citizens of Michigan do, who had nothing to do with it. :noidea:
Such it is whenever any government is sued.

If the justice is measured out properly the citizens of Michigan will follow by voting representatives who will legislate lasting change - but justice must also be served. What tool, other than money, is there for justice when government fails? Do the people have a responsibility for their government?
Sexual assault is already against the law. What do you expect Michigan legislators to legislate that will solve this ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



User avatar
brownjeans
Flatulent
Posts: 12866
Joined: November 3rd, 2010, 10:21 am
Has liked: 33 times
Been liked: 128 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by brownjeans » June 13th, 2018, 3:16 pm

2004AG wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 1:23 pm
brownjeans wrote:
2004AG wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 2:14 pm
oleblu111 wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 12:35 pm
To expect a state agency to protect people, and suing them when they fail is the right thing to do IMHO.
You're not wrong, but the state agency doesn't suffer, the citizens of Michigan do, who had nothing to do with it. :noidea:
Such it is whenever any government is sued.

If the justice is measured out properly the citizens of Michigan will follow by voting representatives who will legislate lasting change - but justice must also be served. What tool, other than money, is there for justice when government fails? Do the people have a responsibility for their government?
Sexual assault is already against the law. What do you expect Michigan legislators to legislate that will solve this ?
That's a question for someone who lives in Michigan and is pissed about this. As for me I have no expectations, I don't live in Michigan.



User avatar
2004AG
Posts: 5049
Joined: November 16th, 2010, 11:42 am
Has liked: 10 times
Been liked: 56 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by 2004AG » June 13th, 2018, 3:38 pm

brownjeans wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 3:16 pm
2004AG wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 1:23 pm
brownjeans wrote:
2004AG wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 2:14 pm
oleblu111 wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 12:35 pm
To expect a state agency to protect people, and suing them when they fail is the right thing to do IMHO.
You're not wrong, but the state agency doesn't suffer, the citizens of Michigan do, who had nothing to do with it. :noidea:
Such it is whenever any government is sued.

If the justice is measured out properly the citizens of Michigan will follow by voting representatives who will legislate lasting change - but justice must also be served. What tool, other than money, is there for justice when government fails? Do the people have a responsibility for their government?
Sexual assault is already against the law. What do you expect Michigan legislators to legislate that will solve this ?
That's a question for someone who lives in Michigan and is pissed about this. As for me I have no expectations, I don't live in Michigan.
Nice cop out. You said something that didn't make much sense and now you're backtracking.

There is nothing for Michigan legislators to regulate and fix.



User avatar
brownjeans
Flatulent
Posts: 12866
Joined: November 3rd, 2010, 10:21 am
Has liked: 33 times
Been liked: 128 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by brownjeans » June 13th, 2018, 3:46 pm

2004AG wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 3:38 pm
brownjeans wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 3:16 pm
2004AG wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 1:23 pm
brownjeans wrote:
2004AG wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 2:14 pm
oleblu111 wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 12:35 pm
To expect a state agency to protect people, and suing them when they fail is the right thing to do IMHO.
You're not wrong, but the state agency doesn't suffer, the citizens of Michigan do, who had nothing to do with it. :noidea:
Such it is whenever any government is sued.

If the justice is measured out properly the citizens of Michigan will follow by voting representatives who will legislate lasting change - but justice must also be served. What tool, other than money, is there for justice when government fails? Do the people have a responsibility for their government?
Sexual assault is already against the law. What do you expect Michigan legislators to legislate that will solve this ?
That's a question for someone who lives in Michigan and is pissed about this. As for me I have no expectations, I don't live in Michigan.
Nice cop out. You said something that didn't make much sense and now you're backtracking.

There is nothing for Michigan legislators to regulate and fix.
You didn't bother to answer my questions. I think we're even.



User avatar
2004AG
Posts: 5049
Joined: November 16th, 2010, 11:42 am
Has liked: 10 times
Been liked: 56 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by 2004AG » June 13th, 2018, 5:42 pm

brownjeans wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 3:46 pm
2004AG wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 3:38 pm
brownjeans wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 3:16 pm
2004AG wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 1:23 pm
brownjeans wrote:
2004AG wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 2:14 pm
oleblu111 wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 12:35 pm
To expect a state agency to protect people, and suing them when they fail is the right thing to do IMHO.
You're not wrong, but the state agency doesn't suffer, the citizens of Michigan do, who had nothing to do with it. :noidea:
Such it is whenever any government is sued.

If the justice is measured out properly the citizens of Michigan will follow by voting representatives who will legislate lasting change - but justice must also be served. What tool, other than money, is there for justice when government fails? Do the people have a responsibility for their government?
Sexual assault is already against the law. What do you expect Michigan legislators to legislate that will solve this ?
That's a question for someone who lives in Michigan and is pissed about this. As for me I have no expectations, I don't live in Michigan.
Nice cop out. You said something that didn't make much sense and now you're backtracking.

There is nothing for Michigan legislators to regulate and fix.
You didn't bother to answer my questions. I think we're even.
I'll answer if you admit what you said was a silly and didn't make much sense.

1- Money is about the only tool when government fails. I probably would limit that amount though since it punishes people that had nothing to do with the crime.

2- I don't know if people have a responsibility when their government fails. I guess some, but again, you're punishing the wrong people. The "government" isn't harmed in any way shape or form. So in my opinion, it doesn' t make a ton of sense.



User avatar
brownjeans
Flatulent
Posts: 12866
Joined: November 3rd, 2010, 10:21 am
Has liked: 33 times
Been liked: 128 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by brownjeans » June 13th, 2018, 5:51 pm

2004AG wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 5:42 pm
brownjeans wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 3:46 pm
2004AG wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 3:38 pm
brownjeans wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 3:16 pm
2004AG wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 1:23 pm
brownjeans wrote:
2004AG wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 2:14 pm
You're not wrong, but the state agency doesn't suffer, the citizens of Michigan do, who had nothing to do with it. :noidea:
Such it is whenever any government is sued.

If the justice is measured out properly the citizens of Michigan will follow by voting representatives who will legislate lasting change - but justice must also be served. What tool, other than money, is there for justice when government fails? Do the people have a responsibility for their government?
Sexual assault is already against the law. What do you expect Michigan legislators to legislate that will solve this ?
That's a question for someone who lives in Michigan and is pissed about this. As for me I have no expectations, I don't live in Michigan.
Nice cop out. You said something that didn't make much sense and now you're backtracking.

There is nothing for Michigan legislators to regulate and fix.
You didn't bother to answer my questions. I think we're even.
I'll answer if you admit what you said was a silly and didn't make much sense.

1- Money is about the only tool when government fails. I probably would limit that amount though since it punishes people that had nothing to do with the crime.

2- I don't know if people have a responsibility when their government fails. I guess some, but again, you're punishing the wrong people. The "government" isn't harmed in any way shape or form. So in my opinion, it doesn' t make a ton of sense.
Oh yeah, it's silly. But voters are silly - especially pissed off voters (as exhibited by pissed off voters in this past presidential election). I expect if enough Michigan voters are pissed off, there will be some candidates who have a "plan" (meaning: impractical, irrational campaign promise i.e. "a huge wall") and pissed Michigan voters will vote for that candidate. So yeah, what I said was silly, but not untrue.
I have little hope of anything actually happening. And what legal actions a Michigan voter would want to "fix" the problem I have no idea - and I'm not sure it would actually make lasting change. But I suspect liberals will want some gender sensitivity training to be mandatory, while conservatives will want girls to be able to carry guns into their pelvic exams so they can shoot their doctor if he gets fresh.



bwcrc
Posts: 85
Joined: November 7th, 2013, 12:24 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Michigan State

Post by bwcrc » June 14th, 2018, 7:56 am

The popular sentiment is often to have new laws to address the latest atrocity. This sentiment is generally silly. More often, it is not the lack of existing laws but the failure to properly apply known information to enforce existing laws that could have at least minimized the situation, if not prevent it outright.

In the wake of Jerry Sandusky, the Pennsylvania legislature in its infinite wisdom passed 28 new laws to help make everyone feel good. For example, any adult wanting to go into his or her kid's school now needs "clearances," which amount to a cursory background check showing you have never been caught or suspected of child abuse. These same clearances are required to be a Scout leader or teach a church class. The protection these new laws provide are negligible at best above and beyond any preexisting law.

The underlying problem in both the Sandusky case and Nassar case is the failure of multiple people along the way to step up and do the right thing. Sandusky was investigated by child youth services and the DA's office years before but never charged. Yes, his relationship with PSU probably had an influence on never being charged but there was never any evidence that PSU tried to influence that decision (and I do not believe was even aware of the investigations). Even with the new laws in place because of him, Sandusky would have likely obtained the necessary clearances to keep interacting with the kids at his charity. I believe there were numerous complaints about Nassar prior to him every being charged but these complaints were either ignored or not adequately followed.



Ahbye
Posts: 1658
Joined: September 26th, 2012, 9:50 pm
Has liked: 9 times
Been liked: 68 times

Re: Michigan State

Post by Ahbye » June 14th, 2018, 6:37 pm

It's hard to hold government accountable, but it's not hard to hold people IN government accountable. If you lost your job for not reporting malfeasance, it would go a long way.



Locked Previous topicNext topic