Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

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Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by Madmartigan » December 7th, 2018, 12:33 pm

I see a lot of Aggie fans on twitter and here that are strangely (to me) averse to hiring head FCS coaches to the same post at USU. Many schools have hired FCS head coaches that ended up being successful at the G5 and P5 ranks. Good coaches at all levels can: recruit, teach fundamentals, and build programs to the strengths of the institution where they coach.

What are the reasons that fans are so opposed to hiring a successful FCS coach on at USU- even one without experience at the higher levels? I tend to think it's a heuristic people use to simplify the candidates they consider. What are the arguments for not hiring an FCS coach?



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by bluegrouse » December 7th, 2018, 12:39 pm

For starters, I doubt that any FCS coach knows the meaning of the word heuristic...



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by Donman » December 7th, 2018, 12:40 pm

I believe the standard needs to be this. Do they have experience coaching at or above our level? For example Hill coached at Utah which is P5, so he has experience recruiting players at or above the level of USU.

While Dennehy brought in impressive credentials, he had never coached at our level or above. Hence he didn't get us the players we needed.



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by Madmartigan » December 7th, 2018, 12:44 pm

Donman wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 12:40 pm
I believe the standard needs to be this. Do they have experience coaching at or above our level? For example Hill coached at Utah which is P5, so he has experience recruiting players at or above the level of USU.

While Dennehy brought in impressive credentials, he had never coached at our level or above. Hence he didn't get us the players we needed.
Why does this need to be the standard? Experience can be helpful, but is not essential to success.



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by Roy McAvoy » December 7th, 2018, 12:54 pm

So hiring an FCS coach is good enough for schools like Stanford (Harbaugh), Ohio State (Tressel), and Kansas State (Klieman), but not good enough for USU? It's crazy talk.


FloridaAggie13 wrote:
November 29th, 2018, 2:33 pm

Hiring an FCS head coach who has no experience at the higher level of college football looks far more bush league. For example, if I was a P5 school AD I would hire a P5 assistant over a G5 head coach.
FloridaAggie13 wrote:
November 29th, 2018, 2:40 pm

Great. Let's hire Weber State's football coach. Sounds like a great way way to move the program forward. While we are at it, there are some high school teams in Florida that could probably beat some FCS schools, let's go hire their coaches.

I'm all in on the Jay Hill train. Bring him in and poach Ed Lamb from BYU. I'm sure the incoming recruits will be impressed and the up and coming Freshman and Sophomores will surely stick around to be their guinea pigs as they learn how to coach at the FBS level.



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by Madmartigan » December 7th, 2018, 1:00 pm

Roy McAvoy wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 12:54 pm
So hiring an FCS coach is good enough for schools like Stanford (Harbaugh), Ohio State (Tressel), and Kansas State (Klieman), but not good enough for USU? It's crazy talk.


FloridaAggie13 wrote:
November 29th, 2018, 2:33 pm

Hiring an FCS head coach who has no experience at the higher level of college football looks far more bush league. For example, if I was a P5 school AD I would hire a P5 assistant over a G5 head coach.
FloridaAggie13 wrote:
November 29th, 2018, 2:40 pm

Great. Let's hire Weber State's football coach. Sounds like a great way way to move the program forward. While we are at it, there are some high school teams in Florida that could probably beat some FCS schools, let's go hire their coaches.

I'm all in on the Jay Hill train. Bring him in and poach Ed Lamb from BYU. I'm sure the incoming recruits will be impressed and the up and coming Freshman and Sophomores will surely stick around to be their guinea pigs as they learn how to coach at the FBS level.
I don't understand the argument against it, but am open to changing my mind. I'm sure there are good arguments out there.



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by Donman » December 7th, 2018, 1:14 pm

Madmartigan wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 12:44 pm
Donman wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 12:40 pm
I believe the standard needs to be this. Do they have experience coaching at or above our level? For example Hill coached at Utah which is P5, so he has experience recruiting players at or above the level of USU.

While Dennehy brought in impressive credentials, he had never coached at our level or above. Hence he didn't get us the players we needed.
Why does this need to be the standard? Experience can be helpful, but is not essential to success.
It comes down to evaluating and recruiting talent. I bet it's the same issue Wells runs into. He has zero P5 experience.



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by Coloraggie » December 7th, 2018, 1:17 pm

My only aversion is the recurring nightmares I have about the "attack punt" which was introduced by the last coach we hired away from Weber.



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by USU78 » December 7th, 2018, 1:20 pm

Lucifer + Arslanian + Dennehy = rational anti-FCS bias.


You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by Donman » December 7th, 2018, 1:23 pm

USU78 wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 1:20 pm
Lucifer + Arslanian + Dennehy = rational anti-FCS bias.
I wouldn't put Lucifer in the same category as Arlslanian and Dennehy.



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by Aggie84025 » December 7th, 2018, 1:23 pm

I can definitely see people's aversion, but I think Jay Hill could do really well here. What he is done at Weber is nothing short of miraculous. He seems like he would be able to recruit well to USU. Biggest question I would have is if his coaches can game plan and win games at the FBS level.



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by USU78 » December 7th, 2018, 1:25 pm

Donman wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 1:23 pm
USU78 wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 1:20 pm
Lucifer + Arslanian + Dennehy = rational anti-FCS bias.
I wouldn't put Lucifer in the same category as Arlslanian and Dennehy.
If a strategy in recent memory is successful only 1/3 of the time, that strategy is problematic.


You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by USUBlue » December 7th, 2018, 1:25 pm

I have no problem with hiring an FCS head coach for Utah State, BUT said FCS coach must have built up and won big at the FCS level himself. No Mick riding the coattails of the previous coach, no DA not even winning big at Weber St.

On the other hand Jay Hill is winning big at Weber St. and with resources far less than even other schools in the Big Sky. Plus he has FBS experience. I think it'd be a very good HC at USU; I'm not saying I would pick him, but I'd be fine if he were picked.



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by Donman » December 7th, 2018, 1:27 pm

USU78 wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 1:25 pm
Donman wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 1:23 pm
USU78 wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 1:20 pm
Lucifer + Arslanian + Dennehy = rational anti-FCS bias.
I wouldn't put Lucifer in the same category as Arlslanian and Dennehy.
If a strategy in recent memory is successful only 1/3 of the time, that strategy is problematic.
I would agree. Arslanian didn't understand basic concepts of football strategy. He was awful



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by UtahStizzle » December 7th, 2018, 3:28 pm

The problem with FCS coaches is recruiting. Jay Hill is obviously great at the coaching aspect, but that's only 50% of it. Can he recruit? There's no way to know - right now he's going up against the likes of Montana and the Dakotas for second-rate players. It's a whole different ballgame in FBS, where coaches like Matt Wells was out finding gems in Texas, Florida, and competing against BYU, Utah, and Boise regionally.
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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by JFW_AGGIES » December 7th, 2018, 3:32 pm

UtahStizzle wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 3:28 pm
The problem with FCS coaches is recruiting. Jay Hill is obviously great at the coaching aspect, but that's only 50% of it. Can he recruit? There's no way to know - right now he's going up against the likes of Montata and the Dakotas for second-rate players. It's a whole different ballgame in FBS, where coaches like Matt Wells was out finding gems in Texas, Florida, and competing against BYU, Utah, and Boise regionally.
Are you serious Lolyd, Jay has always been know as a great recruiter he was offered the DC job at Utah before Scalley



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by GeoAg » December 7th, 2018, 3:44 pm

You guys are wrong on this one. Hill would be a great choice. There have been plenty of FCS head coaches who have gone directly to FBS jobs and been successful. I would almost prefer an FCS head coach to an FBS coordinator. In Hill you get a little of both as he was the special teams coordinator at Utah for many years. He has plenty of great experience recruiting both in FBS and as a head coach in FCS.

Here is what is Weber Bio says about his recruiting abilities...

"During his tenure with the Utes, Hill became acclaimed as a top recruiter. Rivals.com named him to its “Class of 2009 Top 25 Recruiters” and named him one of the Top 10 Recruiters in the Pac-12 in 2012."

So he's had success recognized by his peers at both the MWC and Pac12 level.

Stizzle, you are just wrong on this one.

Hill may or may not be successful if we were to hire him (and I this point, I hope we do) however if he isn't successful, it won't be because he doesn't have experience recruiting at a high level.


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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by Madmartigan » December 7th, 2018, 3:47 pm

UtahStizzle wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 3:28 pm
The problem with FCS coaches is recruiting. Jay Hill is obviously great at the coaching aspect, but that's only 50% of it. Can he recruit? There's no way to know - right now he's going up against the likes of Montana and the Dakotas for second-rate players. It's a whole different ballgame in FBS, where coaches like Matt Wells was out finding gems in Texas, Florida, and competing against BYU, Utah, and Boise regionally.
Hill is successful at recruiting against his peers and even programs superior to Weber. I'd say if Hill were successful at recruiting over schools in the MW and maybe even a few P5s at USU, we'd be very happy with that.

I'm not necessarily saying Hill should be the guy (he could be great), but that this idea that FCS head coaches are absolutely the wrong choice simply because they're FCS head coaches, is flawed thinking.



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by Jjoey53 » December 7th, 2018, 4:51 pm

Weber was garbage and was 2-10 before Hell took over. He has turned trash into a top FCS team..he would not be a bad hire at USU. But let’s see how the whole search goes, as someone even better could be hired.


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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by IdAggie » December 7th, 2018, 5:32 pm

Hill has done a great job at Weber St. However, does this translate to the next level?

History tells us that many FCS coaches are not successful when making the jump. The most successful FSC coach to make the transition recently what Bohl at Wyoming. What Bohl did at the FCS level was much more impressive than Hills accomplishments in a more difficult location. Although Bohl has done fair, the trajectory at Wyoming is downward.

There is much more risk hiring from the FCS level than an experienced head coach or coordinator at the FBS level. Evidence is pretty strong on this.



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by brownjeans » December 7th, 2018, 5:35 pm

"He's just and FCS coach."

It's like people forget that Hill was one of the most highly thought of coaches at UofU for years.

Oh, and he's coached and recruited a door-mat team to #2 in FCS.

I like Yurcich a lot, but he's never been a HC at ANY level.



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by JFW_AGGIES » December 7th, 2018, 5:40 pm

not a fan of Yurcich he has a very weak resume.



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by brownjeans » December 7th, 2018, 6:02 pm

IdAggie wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 5:32 pm
History tells us that many FCS coaches are not successful when making the jump. The most successful FSC coach to make the transition recently what Bohl at Wyoming.
I don't think so. Here are some guys currently coaching great programs who came up from FCS.

Neal Brown, Troy - Came from UMass
Geoff Collins, Temple (just hired to be Georgia Tech's coach) - Came from Fordham
Bill Clark, UAB - Came from Jacksonville State
Jeff Monken, Army - Came from Georgia Southern
Dino Babers, Syracuse and Bowling Green - Came from Eastern Illinois
Brian Kelly, Notre Dame, Cincinnati, Central Michigan - Came from Grand Valley State
Jim Harbaugh, Michigan, 49rs, Stanford - Came from Sand Diego
Dan Mullen, Mississippi State - Came from Wagner
Mike Norvell, Memphis - Came from Central Arkansas
Ed Orgeron, LSU - Used to coach at Northwestern State
Scott Satterfield, Appalachian State - Moved with the team to FBS and is still kicking (I can't express myself without swearing)

It may seem like I cherry picked these, but a search of other coaches currently coaching great programs will likely show a mixed background. Do FBS coaches with FCS backgrounds fail? You bet! But so do FBS coaches who come from other backgrounds.
It's tough for ANY coach to string many successful seasons together as they move from program to program. Whether our next coach comes from FCS or somewhere else, there is risk that they won't succeed. It's a tough job.



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by FloridaAggie13 » December 7th, 2018, 9:21 pm

Roy McAvoy wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 12:54 pm
So hiring an FCS coach is good enough for schools like Stanford (Harbaugh), Ohio State (Tressel), and Kansas State (Klieman), but not good enough for USU? It's crazy talk.


FloridaAggie13 wrote:
November 29th, 2018, 2:33 pm

Hiring an FCS head coach who has no experience at the higher level of college football looks far more bush league. For example, if I was a P5 school AD I would hire a P5 assistant over a G5 head coach.
FloridaAggie13 wrote:
November 29th, 2018, 2:40 pm

Great. Let's hire Weber State's football coach. Sounds like a great way way to move the program forward. While we are at it, there are some high school teams in Florida that could probably beat some FCS schools, let's go hire their coaches.

I'm all in on the Jay Hill train. Bring him in and poach Ed Lamb from BYU. I'm sure the incoming recruits will be impressed and the up and coming Freshman and Sophomores will surely stick around to be their guinea pigs as they learn how to coach at the FBS level.
Stalker alert. Yes, I'm aware of these three success stories over the past twenty years...



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by UtahStizzle » December 7th, 2018, 9:36 pm

You're definitely cherry picking. You'd have to look at all the ones who failed which means they're no longer FBS coaches.


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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by USUBlue » December 7th, 2018, 9:43 pm

Let me just say having watched Weber State tonight, I was very under impressed with their offensive game plan and passing system



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by CaptainChaos » December 7th, 2018, 9:44 pm

I’m not sure I’m for or against it, but my concern would be who would Hill bring with him? What are his connections? Does he bring staff from Weber? That doesn’t seem like a great option. I’m not saying he doesn’t have connections, I have no idea.


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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by CaptainChaos » December 7th, 2018, 9:45 pm

brownjeans wrote:
IdAggie wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 5:32 pm
History tells us that many FCS coaches are not successful when making the jump. The most successful FSC coach to make the transition recently what Bohl at Wyoming.
I don't think so. Here are some guys currently coaching great programs who came up from FCS.

Neal Brown, Troy - Came from UMass
Geoff Collins, Temple (just hired to be Georgia Tech's coach) - Came from Fordham
Bill Clark, UAB - Came from Jacksonville State
Jeff Monken, Army - Came from Georgia Southern
Dino Babers, Syracuse and Bowling Green - Came from Eastern Illinois
Brian Kelly, Notre Dame, Cincinnati, Central Michigan - Came from Grand Valley State
Jim Harbaugh, Michigan, 49rs, Stanford - Came from Sand Diego
Dan Mullen, Mississippi State - Came from Wagner
Mike Norvell, Memphis - Came from Central Arkansas
Ed Orgeron, LSU - Used to coach at Northwestern State
Scott Satterfield, Appalachian State - Moved with the team to FBS and is still kicking a**

It may seem like I cherry picked these, but a search of other coaches currently coaching great programs will likely show a mixed background. Do FBS coaches with FCS backgrounds fail? You bet! But so do FBS coaches who come from other backgrounds.
It's tough for ANY coach to string many successful seasons together as they move from program to program. Whether our next coach comes from FCS or somewhere else, there is risk that they won't succeed. It's a tough job.
Did many of these guys come up as head coaches though? My guess is they came in as coordinators.


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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by brownjeans » December 7th, 2018, 9:57 pm

CaptainChaos wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 9:45 pm
brownjeans wrote:
IdAggie wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 5:32 pm
History tells us that many FCS coaches are not successful when making the jump. The most successful FSC coach to make the transition recently what Bohl at Wyoming.
I don't think so. Here are some guys currently coaching great programs who came up from FCS.

Neal Brown, Troy - Came from UMass
Geoff Collins, Temple (just hired to be Georgia Tech's coach) - Came from Fordham
Bill Clark, UAB - Came from Jacksonville State
Jeff Monken, Army - Came from Georgia Southern
Dino Babers, Syracuse and Bowling Green - Came from Eastern Illinois
Brian Kelly, Notre Dame, Cincinnati, Central Michigan - Came from Grand Valley State
Jim Harbaugh, Michigan, 49rs, Stanford - Came from Sand Diego
Dan Mullen, Mississippi State - Came from Wagner
Mike Norvell, Memphis - Came from Central Arkansas
Ed Orgeron, LSU - Used to coach at Northwestern State
Scott Satterfield, Appalachian State - Moved with the team to FBS and is still kicking a**

It may seem like I cherry picked these, but a search of other coaches currently coaching great programs will likely show a mixed background. Do FBS coaches with FCS backgrounds fail? You bet! But so do FBS coaches who come from other backgrounds.
It's tough for ANY coach to string many successful seasons together as they move from program to program. Whether our next coach comes from FCS or somewhere else, there is risk that they won't succeed. It's a tough job.
Did many of these guys come up as head coaches though? My guess is they came in as coordinators.
Sounds like GA has been hired now so I don't care. If your curious about the answer to your question, I recommend trying this new thing called microfiche. You can get a lot of answers to questions with it.

Ha, ha! JK, google it man!



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by CaptainChaos » December 7th, 2018, 10:05 pm

brownjeans wrote:
CaptainChaos wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 9:45 pm
brownjeans wrote:
IdAggie wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 5:32 pm
History tells us that many FCS coaches are not successful when making the jump. The most successful FSC coach to make the transition recently what Bohl at Wyoming.
I don't think so. Here are some guys currently coaching great programs who came up from FCS.

Neal Brown, Troy - Came from UMass
Geoff Collins, Temple (just hired to be Georgia Tech's coach) - Came from Fordham
Bill Clark, UAB - Came from Jacksonville State
Jeff Monken, Army - Came from Georgia Southern
Dino Babers, Syracuse and Bowling Green - Came from Eastern Illinois
Brian Kelly, Notre Dame, Cincinnati, Central Michigan - Came from Grand Valley State
Jim Harbaugh, Michigan, 49rs, Stanford - Came from Sand Diego
Dan Mullen, Mississippi State - Came from Wagner
Mike Norvell, Memphis - Came from Central Arkansas
Ed Orgeron, LSU - Used to coach at Northwestern State
Scott Satterfield, Appalachian State - Moved with the team to FBS and is still kicking a**

It may seem like I cherry picked these, but a search of other coaches currently coaching great programs will likely show a mixed background. Do FBS coaches with FCS backgrounds fail? You bet! But so do FBS coaches who come from other backgrounds.
It's tough for ANY coach to string many successful seasons together as they move from program to program. Whether our next coach comes from FCS or somewhere else, there is risk that they won't succeed. It's a tough job.
Did many of these guys come up as head coaches though? My guess is they came in as coordinators.
Sounds like GA has been hired now so I don't care. If your curious about the answer to your question, I recommend trying this new thing called microfiche. You can get a lot of answers to questions with it.

Ha, ha! JK, google it man!
But you already went through the effort to find all these guys. Ever heard the phrase “reinvent the wheel”? I think it’d be a more logical jump from FCS HC or coordinator to FBS coordinator or position coach and then to HC. Just because you googled some guys that went from FCS to FBS and eventually became head coaches doesn’t show the whole picture.


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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by Imakeitrain » December 8th, 2018, 7:56 am

brownjeans wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 6:02 pm
IdAggie wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 5:32 pm
History tells us that many FCS coaches are not successful when making the jump. The most successful FSC coach to make the transition recently what Bohl at Wyoming.
I don't think so. Here are some guys currently coaching great programs who came up from FCS.

Neal Brown, Troy - Came from UMass
Geoff Collins, Temple (just hired to be Georgia Tech's coach) - Came from Fordham
Bill Clark, UAB - Came from Jacksonville State
Jeff Monken, Army - Came from Georgia Southern
Dino Babers, Syracuse and Bowling Green - Came from Eastern Illinois
Brian Kelly, Notre Dame, Cincinnati, Central Michigan - Came from Grand Valley State
Jim Harbaugh, Michigan, 49rs, Stanford - Came from Sand Diego
Dan Mullen, Mississippi State - Came from Wagner
Mike Norvell, Memphis - Came from Central Arkansas
Ed Orgeron, LSU - Used to coach at Northwestern State
Scott Satterfield, Appalachian State - Moved with the team to FBS and is still kicking a**

It may seem like I cherry picked these, but a search of other coaches currently coaching great programs will likely show a mixed background. Do FBS coaches with FCS backgrounds fail? You bet! But so do FBS coaches who come from other backgrounds.
It's tough for ANY coach to string many successful seasons together as they move from program to program. Whether our next coach comes from FCS or somewhere else, there is risk that they won't succeed. It's a tough job.
It’s slightly a red herring to suggest that Mullen (who now coaches at UF) is similar to Hill.Mullen was a GA at an FCS school long ago and went through the process. Prior to being HC at Mississippi State he was a coordinator at UF and the QB coach at Utah. Even Gary coached at the FCS level.

I’m no longer “Gary or Bust” and true, an FCS coach could do well here. I just think it’s riskier than people are giving it credit.

Hill would be more palletable for bigger jobs if he went to be a coordinator at Utah (would love him here but we can’t afford $400-500k for a coordinator). Prove himself and then get an FBS gig.

For him to skip that step for me, he would have had to win yesterday. But the showing wasn’t convincing.



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Re: Exposing Biases: Hiring an FCS Head coach to USU

Post by brownjeans » December 8th, 2018, 9:05 am

Not that it matters anymore, but Hill WAS a coordinator at Utah. Unless you don't count ST. I hear that it's one third of the game.



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