I don't think Devin likes Logan

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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by USU78 » June 19th, 2019, 10:29 am

AggieUprising50 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 10:02 am
AggieFBObsession wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 6:50 am
AggieUprising50 wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 3:56 pm
I can understand where the kid is coming from. It's hard to be the minority in the place where you live. I remember when I was in Peru for my mission. I was the only white guy around for the vast majority of my time there. Even though the vast majority of people were nice, I still stook out like a sore thumb. It's hard to feel comfortable in situations like that.
You really can't understand where he's coming from. You may try but you can't. A missionary experience is not a valid comparison at all. It's not living in the real world under circumstances where you are surviving as an adult. It's also not the same because you're not coming from his same racial background and past.

I'm sorry. This is a pet peeve of mine. People trying to use a missionary experience to relate to something that's very different.

It's ok to admit to yourself that you're not the same and you can't really relate. That doesn't make you an intolerant person. It just makes you different and that's ok.
I'm going to disagree with you on this overall. You're right that I wasn't trying to pay the bills and survive as an adult in Peru, but that doesn't mean I didn't have real world relationships and interactions with people. I'm not going to buy this "missionary experience" doesn't count narrative because in the end I was still just a lone gringo living in a place where a fair amount people were raised to look at people of my skin color in ill will.

I experienced an immense culture shock, I dealt with racist comments and actions daily, and had an eye opening experience of what it was truly like to be a minority for the first time in my life.

So sure, I may not have gone through what Devin is going through right now, but I am convinced that my time in Peru helped me understand it better than I would have been able without it.
I would dig down a layer to add to your quite excellent comment. The strategy of discounting others' experiences as being unworthy of consideration is a species of bigotry. The Book of Mormon play is pretty much stuck in that spot, though they play it for laughs. All this talk about Logan being so terrible because there's nothing but white Mormons wherever you look, and they act weird and talk weirder, as banal as that is, is just a variation on the theme Phil Jackson and Worm gave voice to back in the late '90s. When asked about Utah Jazz crowds disrupting the Bulls' game, Worm said, "It's difficult to get in sync because of all the f****** Mormons out here. And you can quote me on that." Jackson was marginally less offensive, saying "To Dennis, a Mormon may just be a nickname for people from Utah. He may not even know it's a religious cult or sect or whatever it is."

Nobody expects deep thoughts from a Jackson or a Rodman, but one ought to get something other than disdain, dismissal, and disses from fellow Aggies. If you despise the Mormon, the Utahn, the Aggie, why are you even a fan?
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You keep using that word. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by AgMan21 » June 19th, 2019, 11:03 am

AggieFBObsession wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 6:50 am
AggieUprising50 wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 3:56 pm
I can understand where the kid is coming from. It's hard to be the minority in the place where you live. I remember when I was in Peru for my mission. I was the only white guy around for the vast majority of my time there. Even though the vast majority of people were nice, I still stook out like a sore thumb. It's hard to feel comfortable in situations like that.
You really can't understand where he's coming from. You may try but you can't. A missionary experience is not a valid comparison at all. It's not living in the real world under circumstances where you are surviving as an adult. It's also not the same because you're not coming from his same racial background and past.

I'm sorry. This is a pet peeve of mine. People trying to use a missionary experience to relate to something that's very different.

It's ok to admit to yourself that you're not the same and you can't really relate. That doesn't make you an intolerant person. It just makes you different and that's ok.
I have to disagree. This is exactly what we should be doing as responsible members of a community is to look for understanding. If Uprising finds that understanding in the way he felt on his mission and it makes him more empathetic, why is that a bad thing?

I don't think he was saying that his experience was the exact same, he was simply saying that he can understand how he felt. He doesn't completely understand how Devin feels, but none of us can understand how another feels completely. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

I'm a 35 year old, white, christian male. My life has been pretty darn easy, and even when I've been ridiculed for one of those characteristics, it has not been anywhere near as bad as what others have to put up with. But if I recognize how s*** the small insults I receive are, that just helps me see how bad it must be for someone who has it worse. And that makes me want to try harder and to be better.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we could all try a little harder to understand others. As Mr. Crane at Logan High used to say, "it's impossible to hate someone, if you understand them."
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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by Smokin Joe » June 19th, 2019, 11:41 am

USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 10:29 am
AggieUprising50 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 10:02 am
AggieFBObsession wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 6:50 am
AggieUprising50 wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 3:56 pm
I can understand where the kid is coming from. It's hard to be the minority in the place where you live. I remember when I was in Peru for my mission. I was the only white guy around for the vast majority of my time there. Even though the vast majority of people were nice, I still stook out like a sore thumb. It's hard to feel comfortable in situations like that.
You really can't understand where he's coming from. You may try but you can't. A missionary experience is not a valid comparison at all. It's not living in the real world under circumstances where you are surviving as an adult. It's also not the same because you're not coming from his same racial background and past.

I'm sorry. This is a pet peeve of mine. People trying to use a missionary experience to relate to something that's very different.

It's ok to admit to yourself that you're not the same and you can't really relate. That doesn't make you an intolerant person. It just makes you different and that's ok.
I'm going to disagree with you on this overall. You're right that I wasn't trying to pay the bills and survive as an adult in Peru, but that doesn't mean I didn't have real world relationships and interactions with people. I'm not going to buy this "missionary experience" doesn't count narrative because in the end I was still just a lone gringo living in a place where a fair amount people were raised to look at people of my skin color in ill will.

I experienced an immense culture shock, I dealt with racist comments and actions daily, and had an eye opening experience of what it was truly like to be a minority for the first time in my life.

So sure, I may not have gone through what Devin is going through right now, but I am convinced that my time in Peru helped me understand it better than I would have been able without it.
I would dig down a layer to add to your quite excellent comment. The strategy of discounting others' experiences as being unworthy of consideration is a species of bigotry. The Book of Mormon play is pretty much stuck in that spot, though they play it for laughs. All this talk about Logan being so terrible because there's nothing but white Mormons wherever you look, and they act weird and talk weirder, as banal as that is, is just a variation on the theme Phil Jackson and Worm gave voice to back in the late '90s. When asked about Utah Jazz crowds disrupting the Bulls' game, Worm said, "It's difficult to get in sync because of all the f****** Mormons out here. And you can quote me on that." Jackson was marginally less offensive, saying "To Dennis, a Mormon may just be a nickname for people from Utah. He may not even know it's a religious cult or sect or whatever it is."

Nobody expects deep thoughts from a Jackson or a Rodman, but one ought to get something other than disdain, dismissal, and disses from fellow Aggies. If you despise the Mormon, the Utahn, the Aggie, why are you even a fan?

Some despise, but not all who find Utah to be a mono-culture and a somewhat oppressive one a that, are hostile. Certainly there are many good things stemming from the culture, such as a comparatively lower crime rate (except in sex related offenses I think) and lower indices on some other scales of societal pathology.



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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by crazywookie » June 19th, 2019, 12:03 pm

UStateTim wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 2:51 pm
I think Logan can be a culture shock for many reasons. Race can be one of them but there are a lot of things for students in general to get used to. My wife came up to USU from Southern California and had a culture shock because of the lack of resources such as not having a Target, Chipotle, plus the Cache Valley Mall is subpar to say the least. It was an adjustment for her but she grew to love Cache Valley and the community. I think what makes Logan and Utah State great are the relationships we form with people and the genuine college town experience you can't get in most places.
I know it was a culture shock for me even though I am white (I know shocker, I'm not really a Wookieepedia), a member of the predominant faith,and quite conservative. Granted I was 12 at the time, but I didn't sound like I was from here and I only ever felt welcome from some very genuine people those first few years. I love living in Utah now and haven't left but for high school and a 2 year break.

It's tough a tough transition like you said for many people.

Aside:
I had a companion on my mission who was from the south american equivalent of a rural utah town. He said to my face he hated all North Americans. He was the exception and most people were definitely not like him. It wasn't a fun period of time, but we made it through fairly well in the end.
Last edited by crazywookie on June 19th, 2019, 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by crazywookie » June 19th, 2019, 12:13 pm

bullshot wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 7:01 am
Young, large families in Utah is why Utah is the youngest state in the US (by a mile)

SOCIALLY INSENSITIVE ALERT!!!

We have 3 of the 4 M’s, I’ll let you figure out which ones

Mormons, Mexicans, Muslims, Meth moms.

I would say we have all 4 in Logan. The only sad thing is the meth moms.


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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by taniataylor » June 19th, 2019, 12:29 pm

While I can understand Logan being a culture shock to most students from out of state, (not just student-athletes) - they are earning their degree. A scholarship athlete is getting a free education - make the most of it. I asked "someone" if this dude has had any issues (as they are friends) & was told no....Devin, as per his tweet, came here for better "football exposure" stating that an HBCU wouldn't give him that - PER my original statement, he came here thinking he was going to play, didn't expect to have to fight his way up the depth chart and now he wishes he went somewhere else.....I remember a certain favorite player of mine being put at the outside spot during spring ball because that outside WR position wasn't stepping up to fill the holes from graduation. Now our new arrivals are getting to town...(Jordan picked up Cam Lampkin last night, BTW) and he will have to step up to get PT.
*On another note - THE WORLD is full of things we don't like or feel comfortable with - it's part of adulting.....
**Sorry guys, I don't have much of a soft spot for this stuff because I know for a fact Logan isn't as bad as HBCUs that are down south where the state literally still flies confederate flags.
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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by ratofallaggies » June 19th, 2019, 12:48 pm

Is it Cache Valley that has the problem with diversity or him?
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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by jpswensen » June 19th, 2019, 1:17 pm

Sorry, this ended up longer than I was intending.

Just as an anecdote, my freshman year I lived in the Morm Dorms (I don't remember their real name, but they were the ones on 1200 E and 1000N). In my dorm, we had a Chinese guy (I think) who was in his late 20's and from Southern California. I talked with him a lot because he studied a lot and I studied a lot, and the rest of our roommates were never around. He never told me what motivated him to come to Logan, other than that a friend/family of his had done something similar and left California later in life to Nebraska and get a degree and that it worked for them.

He never got super specific, but is sounded like he had a pretty rough youth, maybe even being involved in some Asian gangs when he was younger. He criticized Logan A LOT, but later in the year he also said that choosing to go there was the best thing that ever happened to him. He said it helped him get away from a lot of bad influences and focus on getting a degree. A couple of times I joked with him that he was always so vague about his past that he was probably in the witness protection program. He never denied it, so who knows?!?!? I ended up leaving on my mission after that first year and have often wondered what happened to him.

When I was in grad school, for part of the time we lived on the edge of inner city Baltimore. Our neighborhood was really safe, but 4 block away was a different story. Our church congregations was made up of a really wide swath of socio-economic conditions. Additionally, I participated in a variety of programs that Johns Hopkins did to help inner city kids get interested in STEM fields. I came away a much more well-rounded person for doing it, having grown up in southern Idaho then lived in Logan for undergrad, which was quite sheltered. However, one of the things I realized after living in Baltimore for 5 years was that despite the sometimes drastically different cultural aspects between Baltimore and the Inter-mountain West, a lot of the struggles, concerns, and challenges of life were exactly the same.

So, I guess my conclusion is whether it is pasty white, hometown of 1000, sheltered John Swensen going to Baltimore, or a kids (often from extremely difficult circumstances) coming from the big city to Logan, I think there is a lot to be learned. I once got told by a barber in Baltimore to never come back to his neighborhood for my own safety (this was naive me just using Google Maps to find the closest barber shop), and I am sure there are racist things happen in Logan that I wish wouldn't towards our athletes and other minorities. I just hope that excluding the (hopefully isolated) bad experiences it leaves everyone a little more tolerant, a little more educated, and a little more empathetic to humanity at large.


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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by bullshot » June 19th, 2019, 2:54 pm

USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:56 am
Smokin Joe wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:48 am
Even if you're part of the dominant culture (a mono-culture in all reality) it can still be oppressive.
That's a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?
I think we all know some LDS people who feel somewhat oppressed here in Utah by elements of their own culture. It can be pretty constant. Most will not admit this. Every place save N. Korea has its pros and cons.



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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by AggieUprising50 » June 19th, 2019, 3:04 pm

AgMan21 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 11:03 am
AggieFBObsession wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 6:50 am
AggieUprising50 wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 3:56 pm
I can understand where the kid is coming from. It's hard to be the minority in the place where you live. I remember when I was in Peru for my mission. I was the only white guy around for the vast majority of my time there. Even though the vast majority of people were nice, I still stook out like a sore thumb. It's hard to feel comfortable in situations like that.
You really can't understand where he's coming from. You may try but you can't. A missionary experience is not a valid comparison at all. It's not living in the real world under circumstances where you are surviving as an adult. It's also not the same because you're not coming from his same racial background and past.

I'm sorry. This is a pet peeve of mine. People trying to use a missionary experience to relate to something that's very different.

It's ok to admit to yourself that you're not the same and you can't really relate. That doesn't make you an intolerant person. It just makes you different and that's ok.
I have to disagree. This is exactly what we should be doing as responsible members of a community is to look for understanding. If Uprising finds that understanding in the way he felt on his mission and it makes him more empathetic, why is that a bad thing?

I don't think he was saying that his experience was the exact same, he was simply saying that he can understand how he felt. He doesn't completely understand how Devin feels, but none of us can understand how another feels completely. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

I'm a 35 year old, white, christian male. My life has been pretty darn easy, and even when I've been ridiculed for one of those characteristics, it has not been anywhere near as bad as what others have to put up with. But if I recognize how s*** the small insults I receive are, that just helps me see how bad it must be for someone who has it worse. And that makes me want to try harder and to be better.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we could all try a little harder to understand others. As Mr. Crane at Logan High used to say, "it's impossible to hate someone, if you understand them."
Spot on



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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by GeorgiaAggie » June 19th, 2019, 3:25 pm

AgMan21 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 11:03 am
AggieFBObsession wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 6:50 am
AggieUprising50 wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 3:56 pm
I can understand where the kid is coming from. It's hard to be the minority in the place where you live. I remember when I was in Peru for my mission. I was the only white guy around for the vast majority of my time there. Even though the vast majority of people were nice, I still stook out like a sore thumb. It's hard to feel comfortable in situations like that.
You really can't understand where he's coming from. You may try but you can't. A missionary experience is not a valid comparison at all. It's not living in the real world under circumstances where you are surviving as an adult. It's also not the same because you're not coming from his same racial background and past.

I'm sorry. This is a pet peeve of mine. People trying to use a missionary experience to relate to something that's very different.

It's ok to admit to yourself that you're not the same and you can't really relate. That doesn't make you an intolerant person. It just makes you different and that's ok.
I have to disagree. This is exactly what we should be doing as responsible members of a community is to look for understanding. If Uprising finds that understanding in the way he felt on his mission and it makes him more empathetic, why is that a bad thing?

I don't think he was saying that his experience was the exact same, he was simply saying that he can understand how he felt. He doesn't completely understand how Devin feels, but none of us can understand how another feels completely. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

I'm a 35 year old, white, christian male. My life has been pretty darn easy, and even when I've been ridiculed for one of those characteristics, it has not been anywhere near as bad as what others have to put up with. But if I recognize how s*** the small insults I receive are, that just helps me see how bad it must be for someone who has it worse. And that makes me want to try harder and to be better.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we could all try a little harder to understand others. As Mr. Crane at Logan High used to say, "it's impossible to hate someone, if you understand them."
Mr. Crane is a stud! I had the privilege of doing my student teaching with him.



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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by Cast Iron Aggie » June 19th, 2019, 4:28 pm

AgMan21 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 11:03 am
AggieFBObsession wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 6:50 am
AggieUprising50 wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 3:56 pm
I can understand where the kid is coming from. It's hard to be the minority in the place where you live. I remember when I was in Peru for my mission. I was the only white guy around for the vast majority of my time there. Even though the vast majority of people were nice, I still stook out like a sore thumb. It's hard to feel comfortable in situations like that.
You really can't understand where he's coming from. You may try but you can't. A missionary experience is not a valid comparison at all. It's not living in the real world under circumstances where you are surviving as an adult. It's also not the same because you're not coming from his same racial background and past.

I'm sorry. This is a pet peeve of mine. People trying to use a missionary experience to relate to something that's very different.

It's ok to admit to yourself that you're not the same and you can't really relate. That doesn't make you an intolerant person. It just makes you different and that's ok.
I have to disagree. This is exactly what we should be doing as responsible members of a community is to look for understanding. If Uprising finds that understanding in the way he felt on his mission and it makes him more empathetic, why is that a bad thing?

I don't think he was saying that his experience was the exact same, he was simply saying that he can understand how he felt. He doesn't completely understand how Devin feels, but none of us can understand how another feels completely. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

I'm a 35 year old, white, christian male. My life has been pretty darn easy, and even when I've been ridiculed for one of those characteristics, it has not been anywhere near as bad as what others have to put up with. But if I recognize how s*** the small insults I receive are, that just helps me see how bad it must be for someone who has it worse. And that makes me want to try harder and to be better.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we could all try a little harder to understand others. As Mr. Crane at Logan High used to say, "it's impossible to hate someone, if you understand them."
:golfclap:



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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by USU78 » June 19th, 2019, 7:21 pm

bullshot wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 2:54 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:56 am
Smokin Joe wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:48 am
Even if you're part of the dominant culture (a mono-culture in all reality) it can still be oppressive.
That's a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?
I think we all know some LDS people who feel somewhat oppressed here in Utah by elements of their own culture. It can be pretty constant. Most will not admit this. Every place save N. Korea has its pros and cons.
I get what you're saying, but, seriously. Logan Oppressive? That makes no sense, unless it's simply hyperbolic.


You keep using that word. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by QuackAttackAggie » June 19th, 2019, 9:33 pm

USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 7:21 pm
bullshot wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 2:54 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:56 am
Smokin Joe wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:48 am
Even if you're part of the dominant culture (a mono-culture in all reality) it can still be oppressive.
That's a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?
I think we all know some LDS people who feel somewhat oppressed here in Utah by elements of their own culture. It can be pretty constant. Most will not admit this. Every place save N. Korea has its pros and cons.
I get what you're saying, but, seriously. Logan Oppressive? That makes no sense, unless it's simply hyperbolic.
i felt that way as a freshman. i had some weird culture shock where i came to usu to be around people like me and realized i had very little in common with utah mormons. once i was more confident/had a social base, i felt a lot better and logan is now my favorite place. but it wasn't that way my first 1-2 years.



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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by USU78 » June 19th, 2019, 9:51 pm

QuackAttackAggie wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:33 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 7:21 pm
bullshot wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 2:54 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:56 am
Smokin Joe wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:48 am
Even if you're part of the dominant culture (a mono-culture in all reality) it can still be oppressive.
That's a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?
I think we all know some LDS people who feel somewhat oppressed here in Utah by elements of their own culture. It can be pretty constant. Most will not admit this. Every place save N. Korea has its pros and cons.
I get what you're saying, but, seriously. Logan Oppressive? That makes no sense, unless it's simply hyperbolic.
i felt that way as a freshman. i had some weird culture shock where i came to usu to be around people like me and realized i had very little in common with utah mormons. once i was more confident/had a social base, i felt a lot better and logan is now my favorite place. but it wasn't that way my first 1-2 years.
Words mean things. Oppression means something. Feeling weird during your freshman year in college says something about you and nothing about Logan.

Beijing is oppressive. Auschwitz 1944 was oppressive. Venezuela is oppressive. Logan is not and never has been oppressive in any meaningful sense.

So now we must turn our attention from hyperbole to lies and bigotry. Is that what we're unearthing here?


You keep using that word. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by BearLakeMonster » June 19th, 2019, 9:54 pm

USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:51 pm
QuackAttackAggie wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:33 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 7:21 pm
bullshot wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 2:54 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:56 am
Smokin Joe wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:48 am
Even if you're part of the dominant culture (a mono-culture in all reality) it can still be oppressive.
That's a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?
I think we all know some LDS people who feel somewhat oppressed here in Utah by elements of their own culture. It can be pretty constant. Most will not admit this. Every place save N. Korea has its pros and cons.
I get what you're saying, but, seriously. Logan Oppressive? That makes no sense, unless it's simply hyperbolic.
i felt that way as a freshman. i had some weird culture shock where i came to usu to be around people like me and realized i had very little in common with utah mormons. once i was more confident/had a social base, i felt a lot better and logan is now my favorite place. but it wasn't that way my first 1-2 years.
Words mean things. Oppression means something. Feeling weird during your freshman year in college says something about you and nothing about Logan.

Beijing is oppressive. Auschwitz 1944 was oppressive. Venezuela is oppressive. Logan is not and never has been oppressive in any meaningful sense.

So now we must turn our attention from hyperbole to lies and bigotry. Is that what we're unearthing here?
Sorry '78, you're stretching.

Heat can oppressive. Workplace politics can be oppressive. My mother-in-law can be oppressive. Words mean things, but not always the same thing by context.
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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by USU78 » June 19th, 2019, 10:26 pm

BearLakeMonster wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:54 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:51 pm
QuackAttackAggie wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:33 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 7:21 pm
bullshot wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 2:54 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:56 am
Smokin Joe wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:48 am
Even if you're part of the dominant culture (a mono-culture in all reality) it can still be oppressive.
That's a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?
I think we all know some LDS people who feel somewhat oppressed here in Utah by elements of their own culture. It can be pretty constant. Most will not admit this. Every place save N. Korea has its pros and cons.
I get what you're saying, but, seriously. Logan Oppressive? That makes no sense, unless it's simply hyperbolic.
i felt that way as a freshman. i had some weird culture shock where i came to usu to be around people like me and realized i had very little in common with utah mormons. once i was more confident/had a social base, i felt a lot better and logan is now my favorite place. but it wasn't that way my first 1-2 years.
Words mean things. Oppression means something. Feeling weird during your freshman year in college says something about you and nothing about Logan.

Beijing is oppressive. Auschwitz 1944 was oppressive. Venezuela is oppressive. Logan is not and never has been oppressive in any meaningful sense.

So now we must turn our attention from hyperbole to lies and bigotry. Is that what we're unearthing here?
Sorry '78, you're stretching.

Heat can oppressive. Workplace politics can be oppressive. My mother-in-law can be oppressive. Words mean things, but not always the same thing by context.
Yes. Those are poetic, hyperbolic usages.


You keep using that word. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by brownjeans » June 19th, 2019, 11:28 pm

78 I think you're drilling a dry well.

What value can come from it?
Last edited by brownjeans on June 20th, 2019, 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by QuackAttackAggie » June 19th, 2019, 11:56 pm

USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:51 pm
QuackAttackAggie wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:33 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 7:21 pm
bullshot wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 2:54 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:56 am
Smokin Joe wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:48 am
Even if you're part of the dominant culture (a mono-culture in all reality) it can still be oppressive.
That's a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?
I think we all know some LDS people who feel somewhat oppressed here in Utah by elements of their own culture. It can be pretty constant. Most will not admit this. Every place save N. Korea has its pros and cons.
I get what you're saying, but, seriously. Logan Oppressive? That makes no sense, unless it's simply hyperbolic.
i felt that way as a freshman. i had some weird culture shock where i came to usu to be around people like me and realized i had very little in common with utah mormons. once i was more confident/had a social base, i felt a lot better and logan is now my favorite place. but it wasn't that way my first 1-2 years.
Words mean things. Oppression means something. Feeling weird during your freshman year in college says something about you and nothing about Logan.

Beijing is oppressive. Auschwitz 1944 was oppressive. Venezuela is oppressive. Logan is not and never has been oppressive in any meaningful sense.

So now we must turn our attention from hyperbole to lies and bigotry. Is that what we're unearthing here?
you listed some things that are oppressive, but feeling like you have to hide your political beliefs, the fact you did not go on a mission, etc. is difficult and emotionally taxing (aka oppressive). It isn't the same level as being in auschwitz, but it is oppressive.



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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by 2004AG » June 20th, 2019, 6:14 am

QuackAttackAggie wrote:
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:51 pm
QuackAttackAggie wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:33 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 7:21 pm
bullshot wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 2:54 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:56 am
Smokin Joe wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:48 am
Even if you're part of the dominant culture (a mono-culture in all reality) it can still be oppressive.
That's a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?
I think we all know some LDS people who feel somewhat oppressed here in Utah by elements of their own culture. It can be pretty constant. Most will not admit this. Every place save N. Korea has its pros and cons.
I get what you're saying, but, seriously. Logan Oppressive? That makes no sense, unless it's simply hyperbolic.
i felt that way as a freshman. i had some weird culture shock where i came to usu to be around people like me and realized i had very little in common with utah mormons. once i was more confident/had a social base, i felt a lot better and logan is now my favorite place. but it wasn't that way my first 1-2 years.
Words mean things. Oppression means something. Feeling weird during your freshman year in college says something about you and nothing about Logan.

Beijing is oppressive. Auschwitz 1944 was oppressive. Venezuela is oppressive. Logan is not and never has been oppressive in any meaningful sense.

So now we must turn our attention from hyperbole to lies and bigotry. Is that what we're unearthing here?
you listed some things that are oppressive, but feeling like you have to hide your political beliefs, the fact you did not go on a mission, etc. is difficult and emotionally taxing (aka oppressive). It isn't the same level as being in auschwitz, but it is oppressive.
I’m with 78. Those things might make you uncomfortable and unfortunate but they don’t rise to the level of “ oppression”. Oppression is reserved for higher levels. Self conscious about not serving a mission doesn’t rise to the highest levels.

But now we are just arguing semantics and what the word means.


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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by QuackAttackAggie » June 20th, 2019, 6:23 am

2004AG wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 6:14 am
QuackAttackAggie wrote:
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:51 pm
QuackAttackAggie wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:33 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 7:21 pm
bullshot wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 2:54 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:56 am
Smokin Joe wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:48 am
Even if you're part of the dominant culture (a mono-culture in all reality) it can still be oppressive.
That's a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?
I think we all know some LDS people who feel somewhat oppressed here in Utah by elements of their own culture. It can be pretty constant. Most will not admit this. Every place save N. Korea has its pros and cons.
I get what you're saying, but, seriously. Logan Oppressive? That makes no sense, unless it's simply hyperbolic.
i felt that way as a freshman. i had some weird culture shock where i came to usu to be around people like me and realized i had very little in common with utah mormons. once i was more confident/had a social base, i felt a lot better and logan is now my favorite place. but it wasn't that way my first 1-2 years.
Words mean things. Oppression means something. Feeling weird during your freshman year in college says something about you and nothing about Logan.

Beijing is oppressive. Auschwitz 1944 was oppressive. Venezuela is oppressive. Logan is not and never has been oppressive in any meaningful sense.

So now we must turn our attention from hyperbole to lies and bigotry. Is that what we're unearthing here?
you listed some things that are oppressive, but feeling like you have to hide your political beliefs, the fact you did not go on a mission, etc. is difficult and emotionally taxing (aka oppressive). It isn't the same level as being in auschwitz, but it is oppressive.
I’m with 78. Those things might make you uncomfortable and unfortunate but they don’t rise to the level of “ oppression”. Oppression is reserved for higher levels. Self conscious about not serving a mission doesn’t rise to the highest levels.

But now we are just arguing semantics and what the word means.


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I appreciate you two correcting me on my misunderstanding of my own interpretation of my experiences in my own life. despite them fitting the literal definition of the word, I should have made sure they fit your sense of what the word should mean, instead of the Oxford dictionary (“a feeling of being uncomfortable or worried; Mental pressure or distress.“).

Equally nice of some of you to point out that a black man in Logan could never meet that definition. Sure glad you guys could explain that despite the evidence to the contrary in this very thread.
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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by 2004AG » June 20th, 2019, 6:26 am

QuackAttackAggie wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 6:23 am
2004AG wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 6:14 am
QuackAttackAggie wrote:
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:51 pm
QuackAttackAggie wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:33 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 7:21 pm
bullshot wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 2:54 pm
USU78 wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:56 am
Smokin Joe wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:48 am
Even if you're part of the dominant culture (a mono-culture in all reality) it can still be oppressive.
That's a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?
I think we all know some LDS people who feel somewhat oppressed here in Utah by elements of their own culture. It can be pretty constant. Most will not admit this. Every place save N. Korea has its pros and cons.
I get what you're saying, but, seriously. Logan Oppressive? That makes no sense, unless it's simply hyperbolic.
i felt that way as a freshman. i had some weird culture shock where i came to usu to be around people like me and realized i had very little in common with utah mormons. once i was more confident/had a social base, i felt a lot better and logan is now my favorite place. but it wasn't that way my first 1-2 years.
Words mean things. Oppression means something. Feeling weird during your freshman year in college says something about you and nothing about Logan.

Beijing is oppressive. Auschwitz 1944 was oppressive. Venezuela is oppressive. Logan is not and never has been oppressive in any meaningful sense.

So now we must turn our attention from hyperbole to lies and bigotry. Is that what we're unearthing here?
you listed some things that are oppressive, but feeling like you have to hide your political beliefs, the fact you did not go on a mission, etc. is difficult and emotionally taxing (aka oppressive). It isn't the same level as being in auschwitz, but it is oppressive.
I’m with 78. Those things might make you uncomfortable and unfortunate but they don’t rise to the level of “ oppression”. Oppression is reserved for higher levels. Self conscious about not serving a mission doesn’t rise to the highest levels.

But now we are just arguing semantics and what the word means.


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I appreciate you two correcting me on my misunderstanding of my own interpretation of my experiences in my own life. despite them fitting the literal definition of the word, I should have made sure they fit your sense of what the word should mean, instead of the Oxford dictionary (“a feeling of being uncomfortable or worried; Mental pressure or distress.“).
You're welcome. Here is dictionary.com definition:

the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.
an act or instance of oppressing or subjecting to cruel or unjust impositions or restraints.
the state of being oppressed.
the feeling of being heavily burdened, mentally or physically, by troubles, adverse conditions, anxiety, etc.

Here are some other "similar words": brutality, dictatorship, maltreatment, cruelty, despotism, domination, abuse, suffering, injustice, persecution, coercion, control, compulsion, force, severity, autocracy, fascism, harshness, calamity, torment



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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by Gretsch » June 20th, 2019, 7:47 am


2004AG wrote:

the feeling of being heavily burdened, mentally or physically, by troubles, adverse conditions, anxiety, etc.
Hmmm...

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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by NVAggie » June 20th, 2019, 7:53 am

Not fitting in isn't the same as being oppressed. There are a lot of people that move to a new place and don't fit in. There are many movies about it. That doesn't mean that they are being oppressed. It is important that someone finds a place where they can feel comfortable. Then they need to be taught about the local culture. If that person changes, they will fit in with the rest of their surroundings. If they don't want to change, they will always feel uncomfortable. There are varying degrees of discomfort due to not fitting in. Missions are pretty low level compared to Mr. Heckstall's experience. You are given a companion and other people who take you in and train you. I will say this, if you have success as a missionary, that feeling goes away fast. I would assume that Mr. Heckstall would feel more comfortable if he was accomplishing his goals of coming here.

In the end, I hope he can find his groove and people around him that can assist.
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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by dyedblue » June 20th, 2019, 8:05 am

NVAggie wrote:Not fitting in isn't the same as being oppressed. There are a lot of people that move to a new place and don't fit in. There are many movies about it. That doesn't mean that they are being oppressed. It is important that someone finds a place where they can feel comfortable. Then they need to be taught about the local culture. If that person changes, they will fit in with the rest of their surroundings. If they don't want to change, they will always feel uncomfortable. There are varying degrees of discomfort due to not fitting in. Missions are pretty low level compared to Mr. Heckstall's experience. You are given a companion and other people who take you in and train you. I will say this, if you have success as a missionary, that feeling goes away fast. I would assume that Mr. Heckstall would feel more comfortable if he was accomplishing his goals of coming here.

In the end, I hope he can find his groove and people around him that can assist.
At USU you are given teammates, tutors, coaches, and adoring fans. Is say that it is a pretty good support system.


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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by NVAggie » June 20th, 2019, 8:20 am

I think it depends on the person. For some, that is enough. For others, they may need a close friend to really start to feel comfortable and confident. I don't know Devin personally, I'm sure lack of success has played a part in all of this. In the end, our coaches need to provide as much support as possible and hope for the best.
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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by tipitup » June 20th, 2019, 10:23 am

I guess one question that i have about logan is, are these "student" athletes talking about the general population of logan or are they also talking about the other 20K+ students that are here that make up the most people they would associate with. Even if it's the general public, how often do they really interact with them, maybe going to the store or out to eat, i'm not sure just asking the questions. I would think that 90% of their time is being with peers or other students, so are they the ones that make logan unbearable?



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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by Tetonkatest » June 20th, 2019, 10:44 am

There are a lot of people that feel uncomfortable in new, unfamiliar surroundings.... Probably especially when they move to a new State and a attend a new school, and don't know anyone. Young college age people are doing this for the very first time in their life.

It is an easy scapegoat for them to blame the new city and college. Easy for them to blame their being uncomfortable on the new people and surroundings. But the fact is, maybe the problem is their own? Maybe they just need to grow and exposing oneself to new people, and new culture is not a bad thing?

The State of Utah is a bit strange, in that people badly want outsiders to like it and the people. But the fact is, a person needs to grow on their own..... If they are willing to have an open mind, they will usually see the good things. It does them no good to bash Utah or Utah State in an effort to deal with their own awkward feelings.
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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by ChicAggie » June 20th, 2019, 11:39 am

One of the limitations of the English language is that words can have different meanings in different contexts, and there can be wide gradations of the significance of a given word even in similar contexts, particularly where the word is qualitative rather than quantitative.

"Man, it's cold out." My wife would say that if it were anywhere below 65 F. Heck, she puts on earmuffs if it's below 60 F. I wouldn't say "it is cold out" unless it was below 20 F -- and I probably wouldn't even say it then if I were appropriately dressed. Neither of us would be demonstrably wrong (well, maybe my wife), but it is a qualitative rather than quantitative observation which may depend on the context, and interpretation is in the eye of the beholder.

Ditto for other qualitative words like "love" and "oppressive." "I LOVE the Aggies!" "I LOVE my kids!" "I love 80s music!" " I LOVE bacon!" "That legislation sure is oppressive." "The political climate in Washington is oppressive." "The humidity today sure is oppressive." "Sadam Hussein's regime was oppressive." "Certain religious doctrines can be awfully oppressive." All usages may be accurate and perfectly consistent with dictionary (not poetic) definitions, but they all can mean different things and have different qualitative gradations given the context.

And if someone says Logan can be "oppressive," I think we can all use use our rational, reasonable minds and perfectly understand that they aren't meaning to compare it to North Korea, Auschwitz, or Beijing. THAT would be hyperbolic. They are simply seeking to convey a lower-grade meaning included within one of the dictionary (non-poetic, non-hyperbolic) definitions of the qualitative word: "unjustly inflicting hardship and constraint, especially on a minority or other subordinate group" or "unreasonably burdensome" or "weighing heavily on the mind or spirits; causing depression or discomfort." Does "oppression" in Logan rise to "20-below-zero COLD" levels like, say, in Auschwitz? Pretty clear that no one was implying or suggesting that it does. Is the "oppression" in Logan hovering around the "65 F cold" level like it is in the nonexistent land of complete tolerance and acceptance? Probably not that either. In my experience and estimation, "oppression" in Logan probably rises to something more like the "40 F cold" level. Cool enough you can feel it and probably not beach weather, but absolutely perfect for a brisk walk.

Sometimes it seems that posters on this board who start throwing bombs about semantics and telling other people they are being hyperbolic and misusing language are living in some sort of bizzarro world where they are engaging in exactly the same behavior they are accusing others of engaging in. Not sure why it seems that we regularly have to go there.
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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by USU78 » June 20th, 2019, 1:17 pm

ChicAggie wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 11:39 am
Not sure why it seems that we regularly have to go there.
Silence is consent. Why should those who don't care for the periodic harping on religious and/or racial demographics remain silent and thought to concede to the harping?



You keep using that word. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by TheAKAggie » June 20th, 2019, 2:01 pm

USU78 wrote: Silence is consent.
Ah, the Brock Turner defense!
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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by MWCFAN12 » June 20th, 2019, 2:15 pm

People move to uncomfortable situations all the time. I have moved my family more than once to places that felt uncomfortable. Having said that, if you want something bad enough you would be willing to move to Mars to make it happen. And you would figure out a way to make it work.

Being uncomfortable isn't a bad thing, in fact in my experience bold/uncomfortable moves usually pay off big.



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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by ChicAggie » June 20th, 2019, 2:25 pm

USU78 wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 1:17 pm
ChicAggie wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 11:39 am
Not sure why it seems that we regularly have to go there.
Silence is consent. Why should those who don't care for the periodic harping on religious and/or racial demographics remain silent and thought to concede to the harping?
I'm not suggesting disagreement on a fan board should be quelled. In fact, without disagreement, the board would probably cease to exist. Most threads would be just a few posts of people adding their "+1s" or "+1,000,000s." I just don't know why we have to go to extremes when we disagree with one another. Unfortunately, that seems to be the knee-jerk reaction on the internet. Why can't we make the Aggie forum a more civil environment than the rest of the interwebs? It is certainly fair to make nuanced and reasoned arguments about just how "oppressive" Logan is or is not, but jumping immediately to telling people they don't know how to use the English language, suggesting that they must be speaking only in hyperbole, or something similar seems unproductive. Why not share your own experience in Logan and argue the opposite instead of attacking the poster and the language they chose (which, by the way, was language I think most people would agree can be appropriate in that context)?

FWIW, my experience in Cache Valley was that I had an adopted Korean sister, and she was regularly the target of racially-charged and ignorant nicknames and name-calling (of course that occurred largely in the 70s, and I wholeheartedly concede and hope that things may have changed since then). I was also raised VERY Mormon and served a mission, but began falling away from the church while I was still in college (late 80s/early 90s). There were definitely times that I felt that the environment around me for someone in my specific circumstances was a bit "oppressive." Probably around 45 F. Nothing unbearable, but not my favorite temperature.


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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by USU78 » June 20th, 2019, 2:29 pm

ChicAggie wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 2:25 pm
There were definitely times that I felt that the environment around me for someone in my specific circumstances was a bit "oppressive." Probably around 45 F. Nothing unbearable, but not my favorite temperature.
So ... just a light sweater weather?


You keep using that word. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

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Re: I don't think Devin likes Logan

Post by ChicAggie » June 20th, 2019, 2:51 pm

USU78 wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 2:29 pm
ChicAggie wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 2:25 pm
There were definitely times that I felt that the environment around me for someone in my specific circumstances was a bit "oppressive." Probably around 45 F. Nothing unbearable, but not my favorite temperature.
So ... just a light sweater weather?
Yeah, I think that's about right. But OPPRESSIVE light sweater weather. ;)


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