My memory is starting to go in my old age, but I seem to remember a few years ago there was a major debate on this board about the need for Stew to bring in more and better 3-pt. shooters because we didn't have any (Newbold, Pooh, etc.). IIRC, Medlin, Butterfield, Roland, etc. were all results of this increased focus on outside shooting. Now, they've changed the rules and it seems like that approach is going to be a sure loser now. I'm not really trying to defend Stew, but it seems a little like trying to hit a moving target.

I'm not sure what to think about Stew at this point. I really, really want to give him the benefit of the doubt because he's done so much, but it does look a little bleak right now. The problem is, I just don't see our athleticism improving. McGlaston hasn't really looked all that great to me and Viko doesn't have any better athleticism than any of the PGs we've had previously. Bairstow was a monster last night. Have we ever had a player like that (maybe Desmond)? Don't get me wrong, I love our guys and I think they're doing the best they can, but I certainly don't see any players on the horizon that give me hope of being able to compete at a high level.

I was one calling for better 3 pt shooting the year we lost to Texas A&M, but you're right, now the game has changed. You need 3 pt shooters who can slash and create, or at least drive in and throw up their arms to get a foul. (I hate the rule changes if you couldn't tell)

I agree we need players who are awesome at everything a basketball player at his position is required to do. Stew should really consider that when recruiting some of these one-trick ponies we've got. Why aren't we getting guys who are good shooters, tall, athletic, good ball handlers, lock-down defenders, great rebounders, AND good shot blockers. Just like scheduling home-and-home games with power house programs (like mighty Utah, who I'm sure would agree to this), it's a matter of picking up the phone and calling the right guys. Come on, coaching staff - we demand better!

Just a question. How hands on does Stew get in the recruiting process? Is he the type of coach that personally hits the pavement regularly and makes a lot of visits and scouting trips? I ask out of ignorance because I am so far removed from Utah and our recruiting trail that I don't know the answers.

A few high profile high school players (Harrison Barnes, Doug McDermott, Marcus Paige) have come through my area of late and it has been interesting to see how personally involved some of the coaches pursuing them are. Roy Williams, Bill Self, Fred Hoiberg, and many others were out here at high school games quite regularly getting in those kids' ears. Does Stew recruit this hard or does he leave most of it up to his assistants and are his assistants now as good of recruiters as his assistants in the past?

Rabidchild wrote:I agree we need players who are awesome at everything a basketball player at his position is required to do. Stew should really consider that when recruiting some of these one-trick ponies we've got. Why aren't we getting guys who are good shooters, tall, athletic, good ball handlers, lock-down defenders, great rebounders, AND good shot blockers. Just like scheduling home-and-home games with power house programs (like mighty Utah, who I'm sure would agree to this), it's a matter of picking up the phone and calling the right guys. Come on, coaching staff - we demand better!

Seriously. Stew didn't even TRY to recruit Lebron when he was in HS. What a lazy, fat man.

It's a two-way street. If the inside threat isn't there, which it hasn't been since Tai Wesley, then the defenders never need to collapse off of the shooter. We had about six straight years of having a consistent inside scoring threat ending with Wesley where the need for more shooters as a compliment was needed. Now, we need more inside scorers as a compliment to the shooters we have. It's so easy, how come the coaching staff can't figure this out on their own???

Rabidchild wrote:I agree we need players who are awesome at everything a basketball player at his position is required to do. Stew should really consider that when recruiting some of these one-trick ponies we've got. Why aren't we getting guys who are good shooters, tall, athletic, good ball handlers, lock-down defenders, great rebounders, AND good shot blockers. Just like scheduling home-and-home games with power house programs (like mighty Utah, who I'm sure would agree to this), it's a matter of picking up the phone and calling the right guys. Come on, coaching staff - we demand better!

Maybe not 5 of these, but we do need 1-2 of these guys that have half of these attributes to compete. (Particularly physical scorers inside, and fast moving shooters outside.)

FloridaAggie13 wrote:It's a two-way street. If the inside threat isn't there, which it hasn't been since Tai Wesley, then the defenders never need to collapse off of the shooter. We had about six straight years of having a consistent inside scoring threat ending with Wesley where the need for more shooters as a compliment was needed. Now, we need more inside scorers as a compliment to the shooters we have. It's so easy, how come the coaching staff can't figure this out on their own???

Your point about inside scoring is valid, but that's not really the primary issue. These guys are still getting a lot of open looks from 3-pt range. We sacrifice defense big time with these guys and the rule change has made it even worse. While we're rebounding ok, it's mostly because all five guys are hitting the boards with everything they have just to keep us in the games. It's been clear in this four game stretch that we simply can't compete physically. I don't know how anyone can deny that.

In reference to SSS's point above, it doesn't appear that Stew has always focused on recruiting shooters as heavily as he has recently. Only two of Stew's players (that he recruited) are on the all-time 3pt accuracy list from 2000-2008 (counting JC who would've been recruited regardless), whereas there are eight guys from 2008 to present. Certainly seems like there was a shift of some kind.

Not sure why some have to resort to sarcasm. My initial post was a sincere observation/question. I really hope Stew can get things figured out, I'm just not seeing a lot of evidence of that yet.

Rabidchild wrote:I agree we need players who are awesome at everything a basketball player at his position is required to do. Stew should really consider that when recruiting some of these one-trick ponies we've got. Why aren't we getting guys who are good shooters, tall, athletic, good ball handlers, lock-down defenders, great rebounders, AND good shot blockers. Just like scheduling home-and-home games with power house programs (like mighty Utah, who I'm sure would agree to this), it's a matter of picking up the phone and calling the right guys. Come on, coaching staff - we demand better!

Does trolling like this really serve a purpose? The OP has legitimate questions, and legitimate concerns.

The program is not in good shape right now. Maybe there can be a Stew fansite where some posters can go and just worship Stew 24/7. USUfans.com is a site for Aggie fans, not just Stew fans.

Nicely done! 38% and 38% which now shows exactly where the team is lacking inside game much better in past years. Gotta love those tough overachievers from years past. Did not realize how spoiled I became and took those guys for granted. If anything good comes out of this years sorry group it is the greatness of teams of yesteryear. I really underestimated Nate Bendall until this year same with Gary W. The recent posts on the board have also opened my eyes to their greatness. Thanks for the stats.

AGGIEinIOWA wrote:Just a question. How hands on does Stew get in the recruiting process? Is he the type of coach that personally hits the pavement regularly and makes a lot of visits and scouting trips? I ask out of ignorance because I am so far removed from Utah and our recruiting trail that I don't know the answers.

A few high profile high school players (Harrison Barnes, Doug McDermott, Marcus Paige) have come through my area of late and it has been interesting to see how personally involved some of the coaches pursuing them are. Roy Williams, Bill Self, Fred Hoiberg, and many others were out here at high school games quite regularly getting in those kids' ears. Does Stew recruit this hard or does he leave most of it up to his assistants and are his assistants now as good of recruiters as his assistants in the past?

Zero to a little bit, Stew does not recruit very much at all, it is mostly handled by Duryea (SP)

They aren't necessarily Stew fanboys. They just don't see things the same way as you and they have legit reasons just like you.

ZERO in capitals. He does not like to travel and we are just fortunate that he travels with the team to road games. That's for real. I am excited about next year to see if he is going to assert himself in the recruiting process. There will be two directions he can go sort of a forced choice format...either he gets involved or hires a new assistant who can recruit.

You're right SSS, I'm probably not doing a great job explaining my point. While the team 3-pt shooting accuracy has been pretty consistent, the method of getting to that percentage has been very different. From 2000-2008, the team largely depended on one high-volume shooter (Tony Brown and JC) with sometimes a solid second (Cardell). In only one year 2005-2006 were there three high-volume/high-percentage 3-pt shooters. Throughout those years Brown and JC (especially) skewed the team 3pt % upward all by themselves. Finally, in those years, in only that one year 2005-2006 were 3 pt shots more than 30% of the total fg attempts.

In the six years since, 3-pt shots have been more than 30% every single year. With three high-volume (although not always high %) shooters every year. I believe the offseason I referenced in my original post was the 2011-2012 season where PM shot 222 3's. Two other guys shot almost 100 each, but their percentages were pretty low. So we bring in Butterfield and Roland which gives us three high-volume, high-percentage shooters again. In fact, the last two years the team is at 31.3% and 32.5% of total shots are 3 pointers, and I would argue that last year would've been more like this year if PM hadn't been injured. That is a definite trend towards a higher ratio of threes.

Yes, you can argue that a major factor in this is the lack of inside scoring, but I would argue the lack of inside scoring is due more to the focus on recruiting outside shooters by the coaching staff. They rarely had a problem recruiting at least one very good low post scorer until 2011, so why the problem now?

The upshot is that now you have three of your primary players who are all more or less one dimensional, whereas primarily it was limited to one or maybe two guys. Which returns me to my original point in all of this which is that the greater focus on outside shooting has come at a sacrifice of defense, rebounding and dribble penetration to some extent, and that if there has been a concerted effort towards more outside shooting as it appears there has been, the rule change is a really unfortunate occurance. I appreciate the thoughtful analysis/discussion.

NVAggie wrote:They aren't necessarily Stew fanboys. They just don't see things the same way as you and they have legit reasons just like you.

And I for one, am happy to consider those legit reasons if they are actually expressed.

I think our poor recruiting shows when we are getting beat by Montana, Denver, Boise St., Pacific, Nevada, UNM, BYU, not because we aren't playing to our potential but because our players just plain aren't good enough to beat these teams. I get it that UNLV and SDSU have some tradition and are easier to recruit to. But why shouldn't we be beating out UNM, or Nevada, or Denver, for players? Is there some reason that we can't recruit better players then these programs? I think there are two possible reasons.

1- Inability to evaluate talent
2- USU is just a difficult place to recruit to

I think it is the first. Recruiting to Logan is no harder then recruiting to anywhere else as evidenced by our upswing in football talent. I think our current assistant coaches are really poor at evaluating talent, at least compared to the programs listed above. There is absolutely no reason that we shouldn't have players that are as athletic and talented as any other program in the MW.

AggieHead wrote:I think our poor recruiting shows when we are getting beat by Montana, Denver, Boise St., Pacific, Nevada, UNM, BYU, not because we aren't playing to our potential but because our players just plain aren't good enough to beat these teams. I get it that UNLV and SDSU have some tradition and are easier to recruit to. But why shouldn't we be beating out UNM, or Nevada, or Denver, for players? Is there some reason that we can't recruit better players then these programs? I think there are two possible reasons.

1- Inability to evaluate talent
2- USU is just a difficult place to recruit to

I think it is the first. Recruiting to Logan is no harder then recruiting to anywhere else as evidenced by our upswing in football talent. I think our current assistant coaches are really poor at evaluating talent, at least compared to the programs listed above. There is absolutely no reason that we shouldn't have players that are as athletic and talented as any other program in the MW.

I think you would be shocked what other coaches put in the heads of guys we are going for when it comes to mormons. I know for a fact it has cost us kids we wanted in the past.

I don't think this excuses us from doing the best we can in recruiting (which I don't believe we are) but playing the weird mormon utah card happens, it happens often, and it is effective.

As for your concern about the assistants, Duryea has been with Stew for 13 years. Has he forgotten how to evaluate talent? Honest question. You want to rip on Tarvish or even Jones, ok, but what do you believe Tim is lacking that Stew obviously does not?

And you are up in the night if you think we can recruit the same level of athlete as SDSU, UNLV and even UNM. Can't happen. The best we are going to do in this league is be in the running for a conference championship every 4 or 5 years and hopefully be in the top 4 regularly, make the NCAA's and hopefully get some wins. If you expect more than that in this league, then get ready to be disappointed.

frankiedoeshollywood wrote:

AggieHead wrote:I think our poor recruiting shows when we are getting beat by Montana, Denver, Boise St., Pacific, Nevada, UNM, BYU, not because we aren't playing to our potential but because our players just plain aren't good enough to beat these teams. I get it that UNLV and SDSU have some tradition and are easier to recruit to. But why shouldn't we be beating out UNM, or Nevada, or Denver, for players? Is there some reason that we can't recruit better players then these programs? I think there are two possible reasons.

1- Inability to evaluate talent
2- USU is just a difficult place to recruit to

I think it is the first. Recruiting to Logan is no harder then recruiting to anywhere else as evidenced by our upswing in football talent. I think our current assistant coaches are really poor at evaluating talent, at least compared to the programs listed above. There is absolutely no reason that we shouldn't have players that are as athletic and talented as any other program in the MW.

I think you would be shocked what other coaches put in the heads of guys we are going for when it comes to mormons. I know for a fact it has cost us kids we wanted in the past.

I don't think this excuses us from doing the best we can in recruiting (which I don't believe we are) but playing the weird mormon utah card happens, it happens often, and it is effective.

As for your concern about the assistants, Duryea has been with Stew for 13 years. Has he forgotten how to evaluate talent? Honest question. You want to rip on Tarvish or even Jones, ok, but what do you believe Tim is lacking that Stew obviously does not?

And you are up in the night if you think we can recruit the same level of athlete as SDSU, UNLV and even UNM. Can't happen. The best we are going to do in this league is be in the running for a conference championship every 4 or 5 years and hopefully be in the top 4 regularly, make the NCAA's and hopefully get some wins. If you expect more than that in this league, then get ready to be disappointed.

I'm not sure why we're excited to be in a conference some believe we will never truly compete to win. I don't buy the whole anti-mormon thing (and yes, I know it is prevalent out there). BYU won the MW 4 of the last 5 years they were members. Would one not think they have to deal with the weird mormon stories?

There is plenty of talent in Utah alone to compete with the top of the MW. The question is can we beat out Utah and BYU for our share of it (I believe so). If you want the brutal truth, there are more competing coaches playing the anti-Stew card out there than anything right now. USU has plenty of advantages to sell. We just need coaches who believe in them.

frankiedoeshollywood wrote:

AggieHead wrote:I think our poor recruiting shows when we are getting beat by Montana, Denver, Boise St., Pacific, Nevada, UNM, BYU, not because we aren't playing to our potential but because our players just plain aren't good enough to beat these teams. I get it that UNLV and SDSU have some tradition and are easier to recruit to. But why shouldn't we be beating out UNM, or Nevada, or Denver, for players? Is there some reason that we can't recruit better players then these programs? I think there are two possible reasons.

1- Inability to evaluate talent
2- USU is just a difficult place to recruit to

I think it is the first. Recruiting to Logan is no harder then recruiting to anywhere else as evidenced by our upswing in football talent. I think our current assistant coaches are really poor at evaluating talent, at least compared to the programs listed above. There is absolutely no reason that we shouldn't have players that are as athletic and talented as any other program in the MW.

I think you would be shocked what other coaches put in the heads of guys we are going for when it comes to mormons. I know for a fact it has cost us kids we wanted in the past.

I don't think this excuses us from doing the best we can in recruiting (which I don't believe we are) but playing the weird mormon utah card happens, it happens often, and it is effective.

As for your concern about the assistants, Duryea has been with Stew for 13 years. Has he forgotten how to evaluate talent? Honest question. You want to rip on Tarvish or even Jones, ok, but what do you believe Tim is lacking that Stew obviously does not?

And you are up in the night if you think we can recruit the same level of athlete as SDSU, UNLV and even UNM. Can't happen. The best we are going to do in this league is be in the running for a conference championship every 4 or 5 years and hopefully be in the top 4 regularly, make the NCAA's and hopefully get some wins. If you expect more than that in this league, then get ready to be disappointed.

I thought I made it clear in the sections I just bolded and underlined that I get it that SDSU and UNLV are easier to recruit to. My major concern is when we are out recruited by Denver, BYU, Boise, and Nevada. The way I see it, every place has it's pro's and cons, and the "weird" mormon thing doesn't automatically doom our team to mediocrity. It may be a challenge but not something that means the very best we can hope for is occasionally contending. So frankie, how do you explain our poor recruiting? Why do you think the best we can hope for is occasionally contending? What insurmountable obstacles prevent USU from consistently contending for a conference championship each year?

frankiedoeshollywood wrote:

AggieHead wrote:I think our poor recruiting shows when we are getting beat by Montana, Denver, Boise St., Pacific, Nevada, UNM, BYU, not because we aren't playing to our potential but because our players just plain aren't good enough to beat these teams. I get it that UNLV and SDSU have some tradition and are easier to recruit to. But why shouldn't we be beating out UNM, or Nevada, or Denver, for players? Is there some reason that we can't recruit better players then these programs? I think there are two possible reasons.

1- Inability to evaluate talent
2- USU is just a difficult place to recruit to

I think it is the first. Recruiting to Logan is no harder then recruiting to anywhere else as evidenced by our upswing in football talent. I think our current assistant coaches are really poor at evaluating talent, at least compared to the programs listed above. There is absolutely no reason that we shouldn't have players that are as athletic and talented as any other program in the MW.

I think you would be shocked what other coaches put in the heads of guys we are going for when it comes to mormons. I know for a fact it has cost us kids we wanted in the past.

I don't think this excuses us from doing the best we can in recruiting (which I don't believe we are) but playing the weird mormon utah card happens, it happens often, and it is effective.

As for your concern about the assistants, Duryea has been with Stew for 13 years. Has he forgotten how to evaluate talent? Honest question. You want to rip on Tarvish or even Jones, ok, but what do you believe Tim is lacking that Stew obviously does not?

And you are up in the night if you think we can recruit the same level of athlete as SDSU, UNLV and even UNM. Can't happen. The best we are going to do in this league is be in the running for a conference championship every 4 or 5 years and hopefully be in the top 4 regularly, make the NCAA's and hopefully get some wins. If you expect more than that in this league, then get ready to be disappointed.

I don't know why you assume I'm singling out Duryea, or why you assume that I'm defending Stew. I singled out assistants as a group because I understand Stew doesn't recruit much. I don't really care who is to blame, my point is that the evidence suggests something is broken with our recruiting. We have bombed on a huge number of kids that last couple of years.

AgTime wrote:

frankiedoeshollywood wrote:

AggieHead wrote:I think our poor recruiting shows when we are getting beat by Montana, Denver, Boise St., Pacific, Nevada, UNM, BYU, not because we aren't playing to our potential but because our players just plain aren't good enough to beat these teams. I get it that UNLV and SDSU have some tradition and are easier to recruit to. But why shouldn't we be beating out UNM, or Nevada, or Denver, for players? Is there some reason that we can't recruit better players then these programs? I think there are two possible reasons.

1- Inability to evaluate talent
2- USU is just a difficult place to recruit to

I think it is the first. Recruiting to Logan is no harder then recruiting to anywhere else as evidenced by our upswing in football talent. I think our current assistant coaches are really poor at evaluating talent, at least compared to the programs listed above. There is absolutely no reason that we shouldn't have players that are as athletic and talented as any other program in the MW.

I think you would be shocked what other coaches put in the heads of guys we are going for when it comes to mormons. I know for a fact it has cost us kids we wanted in the past.

I don't think this excuses us from doing the best we can in recruiting (which I don't believe we are) but playing the weird mormon utah card happens, it happens often, and it is effective.

As for your concern about the assistants, Duryea has been with Stew for 13 years. Has he forgotten how to evaluate talent? Honest question. You want to rip on Tarvish or even Jones, ok, but what do you believe Tim is lacking that Stew obviously does not?

And you are up in the night if you think we can recruit the same level of athlete as SDSU, UNLV and even UNM. Can't happen. The best we are going to do in this league is be in the running for a conference championship every 4 or 5 years and hopefully be in the top 4 regularly, make the NCAA's and hopefully get some wins. If you expect more than that in this league, then get ready to be disappointed.

I'm not sure why we're excited to be in a conference some believe we will never truly compete to win. I don't buy the whole anti-mormon thing (and yes, I know it is prevalent out there). BYU won the MW 4 of the last 5 years they were members. Would one not think they have to deal with the weird mormon stories?

There is plenty of talent in Utah alone to compete with the top of the MW. The question is can we beat out Utah and BYU for our share of it (I believe so). If you want the brutal truth, there are more competing coaches playing the anti-Stew card out there than anything right now. USU has plenty of advantages to sell. We just need coaches who believe in them.

+1

AgTime wrote:

frankiedoeshollywood wrote:

AggieHead wrote:I think our poor recruiting shows when we are getting beat by Montana, Denver, Boise St., Pacific, Nevada, UNM, BYU, not because we aren't playing to our potential but because our players just plain aren't good enough to beat these teams. I get it that UNLV and SDSU have some tradition and are easier to recruit to. But why shouldn't we be beating out UNM, or Nevada, or Denver, for players? Is there some reason that we can't recruit better players then these programs? I think there are two possible reasons.

1- Inability to evaluate talent
2- USU is just a difficult place to recruit to

I think it is the first. Recruiting to Logan is no harder then recruiting to anywhere else as evidenced by our upswing in football talent. I think our current assistant coaches are really poor at evaluating talent, at least compared to the programs listed above. There is absolutely no reason that we shouldn't have players that are as athletic and talented as any other program in the MW.

I think you would be shocked what other coaches put in the heads of guys we are going for when it comes to mormons. I know for a fact it has cost us kids we wanted in the past.

I don't think this excuses us from doing the best we can in recruiting (which I don't believe we are) but playing the weird mormon utah card happens, it happens often, and it is effective.

As for your concern about the assistants, Duryea has been with Stew for 13 years. Has he forgotten how to evaluate talent? Honest question. You want to rip on Tarvish or even Jones, ok, but what do you believe Tim is lacking that Stew obviously does not?

And you are up in the night if you think we can recruit the same level of athlete as SDSU, UNLV and even UNM. Can't happen. The best we are going to do in this league is be in the running for a conference championship every 4 or 5 years and hopefully be in the top 4 regularly, make the NCAA's and hopefully get some wins. If you expect more than that in this league, then get ready to be disappointed.

I'm not sure why we're excited to be in a conference some believe we will never truly compete to win. I don't buy the whole anti-mormon thing (and yes, I know it is prevalent out there). BYU won the MW 4 of the last 5 years they were members. Would one not think they have to deal with the weird mormon stories?

There is plenty of talent in Utah alone to compete with the top of the MW. The question is can we beat out Utah and BYU for our share of it (I believe so). If you want the brutal truth, there are more competing coaches playing the anti-Stew card out there than anything right now. USU has plenty of advantages to sell. We just need coaches who believe in them.

Doesn't matter if you buy it or not. It is real and it hurts us. It doesn't hurt BYU because they recruit almost exclusively mormons. BYU only won 2 or 3 conference titles outright and one tournament in their time in the MW. And they won the tournament before SDSU, UNLV and UNM made a commitment to be better at basketball.

I want to be in a good conference. I love watching high level college basketball. I'd much rather be in this league and knowing a conference championship is a tough road to hoe, as opposed to the Big West where we knew we were the odds on fave to win every year. If you prefer the latter, that is fine...difference of opinion.

And I disagree with you about the talent level in Utah. After the best lds kids go to BYU, there is not enough talent left here to compete in the MWC. Not even close.

Just an outsider's view, but...

Stew is one of the best pure coaches I've seen. However, he is going to have to adjust to the MWC and it will take some time. The Mountain West is a completely different league now than even 3 years ago when BYU was winning regular season titles. One thing that BYU has feasted on is in-state recruiting and an influx on talent in Utah County. Since Majerus left Utah, the pecking order for in-state recruits was BYU, USU and then Utah (Weber may have even fought for #3). Larry K came to Utah and made in-state recruiting a priority and it is no coincidence that BYU has struggled and Utah come back in the past couple years.

Also, the anti-mormon sentiments are more prevalent than you want to believe. Football is a lot tougher for recruiting in this regard, but b-ball faces the same things. Not only is it a HUGE negative recruiting tool for opposing coaches, but it also keeps coaches out of houses much, much more often. Once a kid visits Utah, the stigma usually disappears. BYU hasn't had to really deal with that problem since they recruit mostly in-state and kids that won't look negatively on the Utah Mormon stigma.

USU has an amazing fanbase and history, but you have to realize that your program dominated crappy leagues with more talented players that executed an amazing coach's system. You'll get there, but it won't be easy.

One other thing that should be noted. USU basketball has declined ever since USU football started getting better. I'm a BIG believer that it is extremely difficult to by a major player in the 2 major college sports. Utah basketball suffered at the expense of football expense, that trend is starting to reverse already. I believe Utah St is starting to see this same phenomenon.

AggieHead wrote:

frankiedoeshollywood wrote:

AggieHead wrote:I think our poor recruiting shows when we are getting beat by Montana, Denver, Boise St., Pacific, Nevada, UNM, BYU, not because we aren't playing to our potential but because our players just plain aren't good enough to beat these teams. I get it that UNLV and SDSU have some tradition and are easier to recruit to. But why shouldn't we be beating out UNM, or Nevada, or Denver, for players? Is there some reason that we can't recruit better players then these programs? I think there are two possible reasons.

1- Inability to evaluate talent
2- USU is just a difficult place to recruit to

I think it is the first. Recruiting to Logan is no harder then recruiting to anywhere else as evidenced by our upswing in football talent. I think our current assistant coaches are really poor at evaluating talent, at least compared to the programs listed above. There is absolutely no reason that we shouldn't have players that are as athletic and talented as any other program in the MW.

I think you would be shocked what other coaches put in the heads of guys we are going for when it comes to mormons. I know for a fact it has cost us kids we wanted in the past.

I don't think this excuses us from doing the best we can in recruiting (which I don't believe we are) but playing the weird mormon utah card happens, it happens often, and it is effective.

As for your concern about the assistants, Duryea has been with Stew for 13 years. Has he forgotten how to evaluate talent? Honest question. You want to rip on Tarvish or even Jones, ok, but what do you believe Tim is lacking that Stew obviously does not?

And you are up in the night if you think we can recruit the same level of athlete as SDSU, UNLV and even UNM. Can't happen. The best we are going to do in this league is be in the running for a conference championship every 4 or 5 years and hopefully be in the top 4 regularly, make the NCAA's and hopefully get some wins. If you expect more than that in this league, then get ready to be disappointed.

I thought I made it clear in the sections I just bolded and underlined that I get it that SDSU and UNLV are easier to recruit to. My major concern is when we are out recruited by Denver, BYU, Boise, and Nevada. The way I see it, every place has it's pro's and cons, and the "weird" mormon thing doesn't automatically doom our team to mediocrity. It may be a challenge but not something that means the very best we can hope for is occasionally contending. So frankie, how do you explain our poor recruiting? Why do you think the best we can hope for is occasionally contending? What insurmountable obstacles prevent USU from consistently contending for a conference championship each year?

Well, first, it is just rude to answer a question with a question. I agree, we should be winning recruiting battles with Denver. Boise and Nevada are tougher, but we should win our fair share. I doubt we will ever win a recruiting battle with BYU, all things being equal.

I think our "poor" recruiting is based on two things: First, the guys playing were recruited to play in the WAC. They aren't good enough to play in the MWC. Not their fault, not our fault, just part of the transition. I would say anyone that reads too much into this year, good or bad, is being overly optimistic/pessimistic. Starting next year, however, we better see some improved talent. Second, Chris Jones, Tarvish Felton and Tim Duryea can not out recruit Steve Fisher, Dave Rice, Craig Neal, Leon Rice, Eustachy, etc etc etc. Stew either needs to get in a living room or keep getting the types of players we are. End of discussion.

And I don't think consistently being top 4 in this league is mediocre. At all. That will probably get us a 10 seed at worst in the NCAAs most years. I love this league. I love the challenge. I love seeing guys in the spectrum that can flat out play. It may have been an anomaly, but we took a team to overtime that has one loss (against #1 UA) and beat #7 KU on the road. I'll take that over Texas State any day. Even if it means a great year is 22 wins instead of 29 or 30.

UtesAggs>BYU wrote:Just an outsider's view, but...

Stew is one of the best pure coaches I've seen. However, he is going to have to adjust to the MWC and it will take some time. The Mountain West is a completely different league now than even 3 years ago when BYU was winning regular season titles. One thing that BYU has feasted on is in-state recruiting and an influx on talent in Utah County. Since Majerus left Utah, the pecking order for in-state recruits was BYU, USU and then Utah (Weber may have even fought for #3). Larry K came to Utah and made in-state recruiting a priority and it is no coincidence that BYU has struggled and Utah come back in the past couple years.

Also, the anti-mormon sentiments are more prevalent than you want to believe. Football is a lot tougher for recruiting in this regard, but b-ball faces the same things. Not only is it a HUGE negative recruiting tool for opposing coaches, but it also keeps coaches out of houses much, much more often. Once a kid visits Utah, the stigma usually disappears. BYU hasn't had to really deal with that problem since they recruit mostly in-state and kids that won't look negatively on the Utah Mormon stigma.

USU has an amazing fanbase and history, but you have to realize that your program dominated crappy leagues with more talented players that executed an amazing coach's system. You'll get there, but it won't be easy.

One other thing that should be noted. USU basketball has declined ever since USU football started getting better. I'm a BIG believer that it is extremely difficult to by a major player in the 2 major college sports. Utah basketball suffered at the expense of football expense, that trend is starting to reverse already. I believe Utah St is starting to see this same phenomenon.

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frankiedoeshollywood wrote:

AgTime wrote:

frankiedoeshollywood wrote:

AggieHead wrote:I think our poor recruiting shows when we are getting beat by Montana, Denver, Boise St., Pacific, Nevada, UNM, BYU, not because we aren't playing to our potential but because our players just plain aren't good enough to beat these teams. I get it that UNLV and SDSU have some tradition and are easier to recruit to. But why shouldn't we be beating out UNM, or Nevada, or Denver, for players? Is there some reason that we can't recruit better players then these programs? I think there are two possible reasons.

1- Inability to evaluate talent
2- USU is just a difficult place to recruit to

I think it is the first. Recruiting to Logan is no harder then recruiting to anywhere else as evidenced by our upswing in football talent. I think our current assistant coaches are really poor at evaluating talent, at least compared to the programs listed above. There is absolutely no reason that we shouldn't have players that are as athletic and talented as any other program in the MW.

I think you would be shocked what other coaches put in the heads of guys we are going for when it comes to mormons. I know for a fact it has cost us kids we wanted in the past.

I don't think this excuses us from doing the best we can in recruiting (which I don't believe we are) but playing the weird mormon utah card happens, it happens often, and it is effective.

As for your concern about the assistants, Duryea has been with Stew for 13 years. Has he forgotten how to evaluate talent? Honest question. You want to rip on Tarvish or even Jones, ok, but what do you believe Tim is lacking that Stew obviously does not?

And you are up in the night if you think we can recruit the same level of athlete as SDSU, UNLV and even UNM. Can't happen. The best we are going to do in this league is be in the running for a conference championship every 4 or 5 years and hopefully be in the top 4 regularly, make the NCAA's and hopefully get some wins. If you expect more than that in this league, then get ready to be disappointed.

I'm not sure why we're excited to be in a conference some believe we will never truly compete to win. I don't buy the whole anti-mormon thing (and yes, I know it is prevalent out there). BYU won the MW 4 of the last 5 years they were members. Would one not think they have to deal with the weird mormon stories?

There is plenty of talent in Utah alone to compete with the top of the MW. The question is can we beat out Utah and BYU for our share of it (I believe so). If you want the brutal truth, there are more competing coaches playing the anti-Stew card out there than anything right now. USU has plenty of advantages to sell. We just need coaches who believe in them.

Doesn't matter if you buy it or not. It is real and it hurts us. It doesn't hurt BYU because they recruit almost exclusively mormons. BYU only won 2 or 3 conference titles outright and one tournament in their time in the MW. And they won the tournament before SDSU, UNLV and UNM made a commitment to be better at basketball.

I want to be in a good conference. I love watching high level college basketball. I'd much rather be in this league and knowing a conference championship is a tough road to hoe, as opposed to the Big West where we knew we were the odds on fave to win every year. If you prefer the latter, that is fine...difference of opinion.

And I disagree with you about the talent level in Utah. After the best lds kids go to BYU, there is not enough talent left here to compete in the MWC. Not even close.

Your argument doesn't hold water because football is getting high level recruits to Logan. Gary Andersen and Matt Wells are good salesman, they are charismatic and can sell recruits on USU and Logan. It doesn't seem like Stew or his assistants have that same charisma or drive to sell USU and Logan as our football coaches do.

I'll stand by Frankie and support what he posted. For every 1 "high level recruit" that visits Logan (or SLC for that matter) there are 5 that say no thanks because of the stigma. Believe what you want to believe though.

One of the zoobie recruiting coaches tweeted some of the comments he gets from recruits from opposing coaches about Mormons. Now we all think BYU is wacked out with their holy honor code, but the same "mormons have horns" is even very evident here on this forum. You honestly don't think that comes up?

Do you think Stew,Mat, Tim would leave a fact like "poor graduation" by a competing school out of the discussion? Would you brag about 60-70 degree January's as opposed to 10 degrees and day after day of inversion fog?

These kids are 17-18. My son was primarily determined about his college choice, but was excited if he got a call from anyone about going to college, even div 2 coaches.

Oh, and if we don't make sure the player is fully aware of how absolutely stupid the honor code is @ BYU, we should.

UtesAggs>BYU wrote:I'll stand by Frankie and support what he posted. For every 1 "high level recruit" that visits Logan (or SLC for that matter) there are 5 that say no thanks because of the stigma. Believe what you want to believe though.

So what are you saying? That no matter who the coach is at USU we will never be a top MWC team in basketball because Logan is too white, too mormon and too cold? That is what we heard about football for years until Gary Andersen arrived. I agree that Logan is too white, too mormon and too cold, but our football program has found a way to recruit to Logan and is already a top MWC team. There is no reason that basketball couldn't follow that model.

feeah wrote:

UtesAggs>BYU wrote:I'll stand by Frankie and support what he posted. For every 1 "high level recruit" that visits Logan (or SLC for that matter) there are 5 that say no thanks because of the stigma. Believe what you want to believe though.

So what are you saying? That no matter who the coach is at USU we will never be a top MWC team in basketball because Logan is too white, too mormon and too cold? That is what we heard about football for years until Gary Andersen arrived. I agree that Logan is too white, too mormon and too cold, but our football program has found a way to recruit to Logan and is already a top MWC team. There is no reason that basketball couldn't follow that model.

No, I didn't say that. In fact I said the exact opposite in an earlier post. However, Utah State and Utah coaches will have to work much, much harder than UNM, UNLV, Arizona, ASU, etc. to get into high profile kid's homes and get them to actually visit the state.

UtesAggs>BYU wrote:

feeah wrote:

UtesAggs>BYU wrote:I'll stand by Frankie and support what he posted. For every 1 "high level recruit" that visits Logan (or SLC for that matter) there are 5 that say no thanks because of the stigma. Believe what you want to believe though.

So what are you saying? That no matter who the coach is at USU we will never be a top MWC team in basketball because Logan is too white, too mormon and too cold? That is what we heard about football for years until Gary Andersen arrived. I agree that Logan is too white, too mormon and too cold, but our football program has found a way to recruit to Logan and is already a top MWC team. There is no reason that basketball couldn't follow that model.

No, I didn't say that. In fact I said the exact opposite in an earlier post. However, Utah State and Utah coaches will have to work much, much harder than UNM, UNLV, Arizona, ASU, etc. to get into high profile kid's homes and get them to actually visit the state.

Agreed