I'm out on Miller

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OrangeCountyAggie
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I'm out on Miller

Post by OrangeCountyAggie » December 17th, 2019, 6:53 pm

I hate to disparage the guy but Brock Miller is just not good enough to play at this level (not that any of us could either). He's essentially the some player as last year, a nonathletic, non defender, under skilled, "shooter" who can't shoot. He'd be fine as maybe the 11-15 guy off the bench but not a starter playing significant minutes.

We've started slow and struggled out of the gate in LITERALLY every game this year and as the schedule gets harder it's imperative that we set the tempo early and be the aggressor. Having our slowest and most unathletic player playing a position where traditionally the best athletes play is killing us!

There was one play in particular against North Texas where his man out-hustled him to a loose ball and it looked like his feet were stuck in concrete!

Looking at his current stats (per CBS sports):

PLAYER GP GS MPG PPG FGM FGA FG% 3FGM 3FGA 3FG% FTM FTA FT%
Sam Merrill G 11 11 34.2 17.1 54 132 40.9 22 52 42.3 58 68 85.3
Justin Bean F 12 12 29.3 14.2 64 128 50.0 1 6 16.7 41 50 82.0
Alphonso Anderson F 12 4 24.8 12.3 50 99 50.5 11 33 33.3 36 43 83.7
Diogo Brito G 12 1 27.0 10.5 43 105 41.0 16 50 32.0 24 27 88.9
Brock Miller G 12 12 27.9 10.0 45 119 37.8 26 82 31.7 4 4 100.0
Neemias Queta C 2 0 16.5 8.5 4 10 40.0 0 0 — 9 11 81.8
Abel Porter G 12 12 27.0 6.9 27 57 47.4 9 22 40.9 20 26 76.9
Trevin Dorius C 10 1 11.4 3.7 15 31 48.4 0 0 — 7 19 36.8
Kuba Karwowski C 7 7 15.3 3.1 9 15 60.0 0 0 — 4 12 33.3
Sean Bairstow G 11 0 10.5 3.0 12 25 48.0 2 10 20.0 7 10 70.0
Roche Grootfaam F 4 0 7.3 2.3 4 6 66.7 0 0 — 1 2 50.0

The most telling stat is that he is playing the third most minutes on the team (28) and has the WORST FG% (outside of Klay Stall whose only appeared in 3 games). He's currently shooting just under 32% on 3's (which is mediocre) but has attempted 82 of them! For context, Sam Merrill has only attempted 52 and made 42%. Someone is welcome to do the math on that but I can assume if Merrill had taken that many 3's we'd be far more efficient!

All that said I'm rooting for him as an Aggie and as long as he plays, I hope he proves me wrong. But it's time to give those minutes to Anderson, Britto or maybe Bairstow. Your thoughts?
Last edited by OrangeCountyAggie on December 17th, 2019, 11:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by brian5562 » December 17th, 2019, 7:02 pm

He showed up last year vs Washington when most of the team didn’t. The majority of the team has shot poorly since the LSU game.

Having said that I get that the biggest thing he brings to the team is shooting which right now isn’t good. Hope he can improve things or I agree a change needs to be made.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by dyedblue » December 17th, 2019, 7:06 pm

Did show up though? I remember Washington saying him to shoot while Thybull (?) chased Sam around essentially doubling him because Washington didn’t give a rip what Miller did.

I guess you think Miller showed up against St. Katherine too.


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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by JonnyCienPesos » December 17th, 2019, 7:07 pm

If you really hate to disparage a college athlete why do it? I mean, you don’t have to.


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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by NavyBlueAggie » December 17th, 2019, 7:13 pm

I will defer to the coaching staff as to what they do with the players they are responsible for coaching. Seems last year this staff and team were highly regarded, so we will just have to watch how events unfold.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by brian5562 » December 17th, 2019, 7:20 pm

dyedblue wrote:
December 17th, 2019, 7:06 pm
Did show up though? I remember Washington saying him to shoot while Thybull (?) chased Sam around essentially doubling him because Washington didn’t give a rip what Miller did.

I guess you think Miller showed up against St. Katherine too.


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Miller shot 50% from 3 vs Washington added 5 rebounds and was the one guy who didn’t look scared.

I do think Miller has been singled out too much. The whole team needs to play better. The one player that has been consistent is Bean.
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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » December 17th, 2019, 8:40 pm

JonnyCienPesos wrote:
December 17th, 2019, 7:07 pm
If you really hate to disparage a college athlete why do it? I mean, you don’t have to.


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He is just saying Miller isn't as good as other players on the roster and that his minutes should go to them. Seems like a pretty standard message board topic. Were fans disparaging Jordan Love who was the quarterback for our longest win streak in program history and is going to be an NFL quarterback when they were critical of his game this year and wanting him benched?



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by brownjeans » December 17th, 2019, 10:58 pm

I think I'm with you. He's a 3-point specialist. If that's your job, and basically your only job, you better shoot about 40% with consistency. He can't do it.
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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by WAAggie » December 18th, 2019, 7:55 am

Performance anxiety. He must do it when it doesn’t count or Smith would stop trying to get him on fire.


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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by 918AGG » December 18th, 2019, 8:44 am

Brock seems to consistently be a step or two too slow on defense. I like this team a lot, and I think that we will bring it together by the end of the season, but our glaring issue is the lack of size, speed and athleticism at that wing position. I'm no Nostradamus, but I think that this will prove to be our fatal flaw in the postseason.

Bean and Fonz help conceal the issue a bit, but neither are a particularly good fit at that spot.


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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Real Life Aggie » December 18th, 2019, 9:17 am

I don't disagree with anything on here about Brock. He needs to improve in his shooting to be able to meaningfully contribute, perhaps work on athleticism (however you do that), and I'm still confused about his aversion to playing even kind of physically. But, at the same time, he's only a sophomore. We can't expect him to contribute as well as Brito or Merrill. Plus, I saw so much hustle from him during the BYU game when he was running back and forth as Haws and whoever were tossing the ball back and forth behind the line. I was getting tired just watching him go back and forth trying to keep them covered.

Look, I'm not particularly excited when I see Brock on the floor, taking shots, or guarding key players. I think we have better options available. But lack of effort does not seem to be Brock's issue here. Let him develop and find his place/confidence without constantly pulling apart everything he's not doing up to your standards. I'd rather have an earnest, hardworking team player with middling capability over a talented but lazy selfish player. Can we hope that he'll be recruited over? Definitely. But that's a good 20 games away from happening. There's a lot of playing time between now and then. Maybe he'll get the Crew Ainge treatment and lose all his playing time to Bairstow or something. Or maybe he'll find his in-game rhythm and start to consistently perform at a high level. For now, I wish him well and trust in the minutes that Coach Smith is giving him.
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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by NVAggie » December 18th, 2019, 9:29 am

If anyone is mad about Miller, they need to be mad at Coach Smith. Smith is playing him and starting him. Miller isn't lazy, he just isn't playing well. He is limited in what he can do. I don't generally take it out on the players. If there is a better option, it is Smith's job to play the better option.
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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by ProfessorChaos » December 18th, 2019, 11:33 am

I know for certain that we could find a handful of threads from just two years ago about how Diogo Brito is "just not good enough to play at this level". Same can be said about Justin Bean from just one year ago.

Point being... Sometimes good things take time.
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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by GUS » December 18th, 2019, 12:47 pm

I think Miller should be in the rotation, but more of a coming off of the bench guy. Not sure why he is starting over Brito.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by newhouse9 » December 18th, 2019, 1:08 pm

As it is, bringing Brito off the bench provides a productive spark. Perhaps not as much if Miller comes off the bench.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by AggieFBObsession » December 18th, 2019, 3:06 pm

What's lost a bit here is that when you're struggling on offense like this, you need to turn it around by playing better on defense. You don't turn it around by shooting more....

That's the real problem here.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by brownjeans » December 18th, 2019, 3:20 pm

AggieFBObsession wrote:
December 18th, 2019, 3:06 pm
What's lost a bit here is that when you're struggling on offense like this, you need to turn it around by playing better on defense. You don't turn it around by shooting more....

That's the real problem here.
Miller is playing the best defense he can, he can't play better.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by AggieFBObsession » December 18th, 2019, 3:29 pm

brownjeans, I implied that without saying it directly. So, if that's really true, which I also believe is true by watching his lateral movement on defense, then the coach needs to look at who has the athletic ability to replace his minutes.

...Who has the athletic ability and size to replace those minutes? Brito and Anderson. Brito isn't shooting well now, but at least you can ask him to play better on defense. Anderson isn't playing the best defense, but he's been playing out of position at the 4 and the 5 where he doesn't have the size and doesn't have enough ability to guard the post. He's certainly athletic enough and quick enough to play the 3. So, there's the answer. Rarely will a 3 get posted up, at least not nearly as much as at the 4 or 5. And against an opponent smaller and not as strong I think Anderson would do just fine.
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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Real Life Aggie » December 18th, 2019, 4:17 pm

AggieFBObsession wrote:
December 18th, 2019, 3:29 pm
brownjeans, I implied that without saying it directly. So, if that's really true, which I also believe is true by watching his lateral movement on defense, then the coach needs to look at who has the athletic ability to replace his minutes.

...Who has the athletic ability and size to replace those minutes? Brito and Anderson. Brito isn't shooting well now, but at least you can ask him to play better on defense. Anderson isn't playing the best defense, but he's been playing out of position at the 4 and the 5 where he doesn't have the size and doesn't have enough ability to guard the post. He's certainly athletic enough and quick enough to play the 3. So, there's the answer. Rarely will a 3 get posted up, at least not nearly as much as at the 4 or 5. And against an opponent smaller and not as strong I think Anderson would do just fine.
And Brito does step up on defense, to your point. He's basically blitzing during key moments and has performed very well. Some excellent steals at the best possible time, great coverage, and really bringing the intensity. But Brito can't do that all the time. We can't just say "Rather than use Miller, let's just have Brito go balls out on defense ALL THE TIME." The man needs a break.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by AggieFBObsession » December 18th, 2019, 7:16 pm

Where did I say that Brito wouldn't get a break?
I'm sure the coaches can figure out a rotation where Miller's minutes are reduced and the correct people play in his role (Brito or Anderson).

Miller shouldn't be playing 25+ minutes per game shooting like this and being a liability on defense. Something needs to change even if the Aggies win tonight.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Sl7vk » December 18th, 2019, 8:17 pm

He was dreadful again but he did get his hand on the ball after the Porter miss that pin balled to Bean for the victory?



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by MetsJetsAggies » December 18th, 2019, 8:17 pm

And hit a pretty big 3 late in the 2H



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Imakeitrain » December 18th, 2019, 8:32 pm

Miller is good enough to play at this level.However, he is NOT playing well enough right now. He is in a slump and he absolutely needs to get it together- stat. If other people were struggling as bad as Miller is, it'd be talked about. Many people talked about how poorly Porter played for awhile- but then Porter started to improve.

Cutting him would be the absolute wrong move. He'll end up being the next Skyler Halford transfer to BYU or something and then wind up being a decent player for them.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by MetsJetsAggies » December 18th, 2019, 8:38 pm

What options do we even have? Brito is just as cold right now, Bairstow would've been absolutely eaten alive by USF on D.

People complaining about Porter were off base, and Miller is also our best option at the 3 because Brito has to backup Porter/Sam as a ball handler and Anderson is currently our backup 4 and 5. No options until Kuba is back, maybe then you'll see Anderson or Bean at the 3



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by blueaggie » December 18th, 2019, 8:40 pm

Sl7vk wrote:
December 18th, 2019, 8:17 pm
He was dreadful again but he did get his hand on the ball after the Porter miss that pin balled to Bean for the victory?
I thought it was Brito that tipped the ball.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by MetsJetsAggies » December 18th, 2019, 8:41 pm

blueaggie wrote:
December 18th, 2019, 8:40 pm
Sl7vk wrote:
December 18th, 2019, 8:17 pm
He was dreadful again but he did get his hand on the ball after the Porter miss that pin balled to Bean for the victory?
I thought it was Brito that tipped the ball.
They both did, Miller got to it the first time



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Roy McAvoy » December 18th, 2019, 8:48 pm

MetsJetsAggies wrote:
December 18th, 2019, 8:38 pm
What options do we even have? Brito is just as cold right now, Bairstow would've been absolutely eaten alive by USF on D.

People complaining about Porter were off base, and Miller is also our best option at the 3 because Brito has to backup Porter/Sam as a ball handler and Anderson is currently our backup 4 and 5. No options until Kuba is back, maybe then you'll see Anderson or Bean at the 3
I think the Porter complaints were perfectly justified but to his credit he’s elevating his game and deserves kudos for it.

I’d also like to state that my complaints weren’t as much about Porter per say, as they were that I wished coach smith would’ve brought in an athletic ball handing Jc guard to add to the team .
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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by AggieFBObsession » December 18th, 2019, 8:56 pm

MetsJetsAggies wrote:
December 18th, 2019, 8:38 pm
People complaining about Porter were off base, and Miller is also our best option at the 3 because Brito has to backup Porter/Sam as a ball handler and Anderson is currently our backup 4 and 5. No options until Kuba is back, maybe then you'll see Anderson or Bean at the 3
Anderson isn't stuck at the 4 spot. He can play two positions. It's amazing how limited your thinking is on this issue. There's not that much difference between the 4 and the 3 that Anderson can't play it. He's got quicker feet.

You're right about one thing. Kuba needs to come back to give us depth at the 5. Bean shouldn't have to play that role.

As it relates to Porter, he had a great game tonight. They had some athletic guards. That's the first game where I've seen him play well enough to start against athletic and quick guards like that. I hope he can continue because when he's knocking down the three and passing like tonight it makes a huge difference. We need that every night from him.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Bank Shot » December 18th, 2019, 9:05 pm

Look at the minutes played tonight.

Merrill 27
Queta 29
Bean 37
Porter 43
Brito 33
Fonz 26
Miller 28
Bairstow 1
Obviously the staff doesn't think Bairstow is ready for considerable playing time against D1 opponents, so just where else are you supposed to get minutes to sit Miller? And Miller's minutes were probably inflated a bit because of Merrill's foul trouble. I think Fonz would have played a bit more at the 3 is Merrill had got his usual PT.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by MetsJetsAggies » December 18th, 2019, 9:19 pm

AggieFBObsession wrote:
December 18th, 2019, 8:56 pm
MetsJetsAggies wrote:
December 18th, 2019, 8:38 pm
People complaining about Porter were off base, and Miller is also our best option at the 3 because Brito has to backup Porter/Sam as a ball handler and Anderson is currently our backup 4 and 5. No options until Kuba is back, maybe then you'll see Anderson or Bean at the 3
Anderson isn't stuck at the 4 spot. He can play two positions. It's amazing how limited your thinking is on this issue. There's not that much difference between the 4 and the 3 that Anderson can't play it. He's got quicker feet.

You're right about one thing. Kuba needs to come back to give us depth at the 5. Bean shouldn't have to play that role.

As it relates to Porter, he had a great game tonight. They had some athletic guards. That's the first game where I've seen him play well enough to start against athletic and quick guards like that. I hope he can continue because when he's knocking down the three and passing like tonight it makes a huge difference. We need that every night from him.
Anderson is currently the backup 4 and 5, how many minutes could he realistically get at the 3? 5-10?

No matter what Miller will have to play 25-30 mins a night until Kuba is back or Queta proves he is full speed

Porter is our only option at the point so I'm not sure who everyone wanted to play over him, and he wasn't playing poorly, just passively



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by AggieFBObsession » December 18th, 2019, 9:50 pm

MetsJetsAggies wrote:
December 18th, 2019, 9:19 pm


Anderson is currently the backup 4 and 5, how many minutes could he realistically get at the 3? 5-10?

No matter what Miller will have to play 25-30 mins a night until Kuba is back or Queta proves he is full speed
Right now with Kuba out I'd play it like this. I've changed my opinion about Porter after what I saw tonight but my confidence still isn't that high on him.

Pos. Name Minutes
1a. Porter 26
1b. Merrill 14
2a. Merrill 24
2b. Brito 16
3a. Anderson 20
3b. Miller 12
3c. Brito 8
4a. Bean 30
4b. Anderson 10
5a. Queta 34 (his minutes will increase to here and probably not surpass it)
5b. Bean 4 minutes
5c. Dorius 2 minutes

When Kuba comes back you can look at replacing Dorius' minutes at first. Then you can look at him replacing Beans' minutes too at the 5. Since Bean is such a great player Anderson's minutes would be reduced at the 4 spot and increased at the 3. At that point take a second look at Miller keeping his 12 minutes or not.

The point is Miller should be playing no more than 12 minutes per game right now not 20 or 25+.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by lcrasmus » December 18th, 2019, 9:57 pm

ProfessorChaos wrote:
December 18th, 2019, 11:33 am
I know for certain that we could find a handful of threads from just two years ago about how Diogo Brito is "just not good enough to play at this level". Same can be said about Justin Bean from just one year ago.

Point being... Sometimes good things take time.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6733&p=10901&hilit= ... een#p10901

Brian Green took through December of his junior year of college to find his shot. And this board was NOT KIND to him before that. Now he's a hero.

It's almost as if this comes up repeatedly and folks here think they know better than the people running the program... :noidea:
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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Mr. Sneelock » December 18th, 2019, 10:11 pm

I like Miller, but at what point do we stop saying he is playing badly or in a slump, and start saying that he isn't good enough to be a starter on a team that has conference championship aspirations?


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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Aggiefever » December 18th, 2019, 10:12 pm

I think a lot of people zero in on (and often times exaggerate) a players limitation and downplay their contributions. Miller has been beat on defense but so has everyone else but we have a selective memory. People say that Miller avoids all contact but I saw him almost take out the center for USF (he didn’t stop boxing him out until they were both out of bounds) on a rebound with about 7:30 left in the game. I also notice that the opposing teams defenders are a lot less likely to leave and help on drives if they are guarding Miller because he has a quicker release than anyone else. He has limitations, and I hope to see more consistency and better shot selections from him, but his poor play has been greatly exaggerated.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by lcrasmus » December 18th, 2019, 10:36 pm

Also, to reiterate a point that got ignored in another thread.

Miller is top 15 in the conference in both Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares.

Defensive Rating
2019-20 MWC 92.3 (14th)
Defensive Win Shares
2019-20 MWC 0.7 (11th)

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/pl ... ler-1.html

I know, once again, that it's very in vogue to say "I've observed him to be a bad defender" but you're wrong.

Let's break down a bit why with the full lists of each.

Win Shares:

1. Justin Bean Utah State 1.2
2. Diogo Brito Utah State 1.0
3. Sam Merrill Utah State 0.9
4. Carlton Bragg Jr. New Mexico 0.9
5. Alphonso Anderson Utah State 0.8
6. Malachi Flynn San Diego State 0.8
7. Nathan Mensah San Diego State 0.8
8. JJ Caldwell New Mexico 0.8
9. Yanni Wetzell San Diego State 0.7
10. Abel Porter Utah State 0.7
11. Brock Miller Utah State 0.7
12. Justinian Jessup Boise State 0.7
13. Nico Carvacho Colorado State 0.7
14. Hunter Maldonado Wyoming 0.7
15. Jordan Schakel San Diego State 0.7
16. Matt Mitchell San Diego State 0.7
17. JaQuan Lyle New Mexico 0.6
18. KJ Feagin San Diego State 0.6
19. Nate Grimes Fresno State 0.6
20. Derrick Alston Boise State 0.6

Defensive Rating:

1. Nathan Mensah San Diego State 76.3
2. Justin Bean Utah State 80.2
3. Matt Mitchell San Diego State 83.4
4. Diogo Brito Utah State 84.5
5. Yanni Wetzell San Diego State 85.4
6. Alphonso Anderson Utah State 85.8
7. Malachi Flynn San Diego State 87.7
8. Roderick Williams Boise State 88.3
9. Carlton Bragg Jr. New Mexico 89.1
10. Sam Merrill Utah State 89.3
11. Jordan Schakel San Diego State 89.4
12. Abel Porter Utah State 91.2
13. KJ Feagin San Diego State 91.8
14. Brock Miller Utah State 92.3
15. Nate Grimes Fresno State 92.6
16. Justinian Jessup Boise State 94.2
17. JJ Caldwell New Mexico 95.5
18. Hunter Maldonado Wyoming 95.8
19. Nico Carvacho Colorado State 96.2
20. New Williams Fresno State 96.3

In the two measured defensive categories, Brock Miller is in the top 10% of the conference in both, ahead of a LOT of good players. The issue, again, is he's the 6th best rated defender on our team.

This will be ignored, and people will continue to insist that he's bad at basketball. Carry on.



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