I'm out on Miller

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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by hipsterdoofus21 » December 18th, 2019, 10:43 pm

Miller kept the rebound alive that eventually ended in Bean’s hands. I think every player on this team is valuable. We’re still settling in on roles since our lineup has been in flux all year.
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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by MetsJetsAggies » December 18th, 2019, 10:46 pm

I say this as someone defending Miller, but that mostly shows he's our 4th worst starter defensively (only ahead of Porter) and Brito is also ahead of him. Miller isn't bad defensively, but his rating is more dependent on the rest of the guys he plays with than his abilities

But he is defensively sound



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by lcrasmus » December 19th, 2019, 12:08 am

MetsJetsAggies wrote:I say this as someone defending Miller, but that mostly shows he's our 4th worst starter defensively (only ahead of Porter) and Brito is also ahead of him. Miller isn't bad defensively, but his rating is more dependent on the rest of the guys he plays with than his abilities

But he is defensively sound

Or the fact that we have 4 guards in the top 15 before other teams have any should mean something.


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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by TheAKAggie » December 19th, 2019, 12:17 am

Real Life Aggie wrote:I don't disagree with anything on here about Brock. He needs to improve in his shooting to be able to meaningfully contribute, perhaps work on athleticism (however you do that), and I'm still confused about his aversion to playing even kind of physically. But, at the same time, he's only a sophomore. We can't expect him to contribute as well as Brito or Merrill. Plus, I saw so much hustle from him during the BYU game when he was running back and forth as Haws and whoever were tossing the ball back and forth behind the line. I was getting tired just watching him go back and forth trying to keep them covered.

Look, I'm not particularly excited when I see Brock on the floor, taking shots, or guarding key players. I think we have better options available. But lack of effort does not seem to be Brock's issue here. Let him develop and find his place/confidence without constantly pulling apart everything he's not doing up to your standards. I'd rather have an earnest, hardworking team player with middling capability over a talented but lazy selfish player. Can we hope that he'll be recruited over? Definitely. But that's a good 20 games away from happening. There's a lot of playing time between now and then. Maybe he'll get the Crew Ainge treatment and lose all his playing time to Bairstow or something. Or maybe he'll find his in-game rhythm and start to consistently perform at a high level. For now, I wish him well and trust in the minutes that Coach Smith is giving him.
A 23 year old sophomore...


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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by MetsJetsAggies » December 19th, 2019, 1:02 am

lcrasmus wrote:
December 19th, 2019, 12:08 am
MetsJetsAggies wrote:I say this as someone defending Miller, but that mostly shows he's our 4th worst starter defensively (only ahead of Porter) and Brito is also ahead of him. Miller isn't bad defensively, but his rating is more dependent on the rest of the guys he plays with than his abilities

But he is defensively sound

Or the fact that we have 4 guards in the top 15 before other teams have any should mean something.


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Sure, we are well coached and very sound defensively as a unit. But the stats for the guards would probably look a little worse without Kuba (whose defensive rating in limited minutes was insanely good before he had surgery)/Queta (not as much) in the middle and Bean grabbing every rebound in sight

Like I said, I don't mind Miller. He's cold right now, I think he's in his head, but I do believe he's worthy of being a 25 minute guy on a tournament level team. Just wish he would figure out some more consistency on his shot and not be so hot and cold with it



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by aggiebravado » December 19th, 2019, 3:20 am

Brock Miller is a Chucker!!!!

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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by QuackAttackAggie » December 19th, 2019, 5:45 am

Bean only got the board to win the game because Miller got in there and knocked the ball out of the scrum.


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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Roy McAvoy » December 19th, 2019, 8:56 am

This is why Miller plays and this is why Miller starts! This will never show up in a box score, but watch the play he made here to get the ball to Bean to win the game. He makes plays like these throughout the game.




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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by AggieFBObsession » December 19th, 2019, 10:24 am

lcrasmus wrote:
December 18th, 2019, 10:36 pm
Also, to reiterate a point that got ignored in another thread.

Miller is top 15 in the conference in both Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares.
I'm not interested in how he compares to the rest of the conference. Utah State basketball this season, should be mostly above that kind of comparison. I don't expect that to be the case every year, but if you're not thinking bigger than that this year then something is seriously wrong with your thinking.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Blitz79 » December 19th, 2019, 11:50 am

Roy, you need to watch a different angle of that play.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by treesap32 » December 19th, 2019, 11:56 am

It appears that Miller may have tipped it away from 2 USF defenders (hard to tell if he got a hand on it, but he definitely tried) at which point it ricocheted under the hoop where Brito batted it toward the free throw line. Bean was waiting and the rest is history. I give all three of them credit on this one. Replay can be seen here for those with WatchESPN:

https://www.espn.com/watch/player?id=56 ... deee5e68f7

Go to 2:00:30 for about 4 angles of the replay in slow mo.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by SLB » December 19th, 2019, 12:13 pm

Miller is not a bad player. The real issue is that Miller is talented and was a high grade recruit, and Miller is suppose to be the next Merrill (which is crazy). Miller will continue to work and hopefully improve enough for March and April.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by ThunderAggie » December 19th, 2019, 12:45 pm

I do not like how much hate everyone has been giving Miller all season. I am not saying he has been playing well as it is apparent he has not been making shots, but we all get the point...Miller should get limited playing time and should not chuck up so many shots. No one comes and blames Brito after 0 points last night. Truth is the team has been struggling to hit shots. If you watch the game and have no ties to USU, you do not sit there and think Miller is an awful player. Yeah maybe you might think he is a bit of a chucker but he has nice form and is close on most of his attempts. He doesn’t turn it over too much, plays decent defense, and has played with the starters and knows the movements of the offense. I too have been frustrated with Miller, but as long as he isn’t chucking up over 6 three pointers (unless he is hot) I have nothing against playing him. I trust Smith and the staff to play who they know will give us the best chance of winning. I think if Miller expands his game a bit more, then he will be able to contribute more.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by utaggies » December 19th, 2019, 1:02 pm

lcrasmus wrote:
December 18th, 2019, 10:36 pm
Also, to reiterate a point that got ignored in another thread.

Miller is top 15 in the conference in both Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares.

Defensive Rating
2019-20 MWC 92.3 (14th)
Defensive Win Shares
2019-20 MWC 0.7 (11th)

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/pl ... ler-1.html

I know, once again, that it's very in vogue to say "I've observed him to be a bad defender" but you're wrong.

Let's break down a bit why with the full lists of each.

Win Shares:

1. Justin Bean Utah State 1.2
2. Diogo Brito Utah State 1.0
3. Sam Merrill Utah State 0.9
4. Carlton Bragg Jr. New Mexico 0.9
5. Alphonso Anderson Utah State 0.8
6. Malachi Flynn San Diego State 0.8
7. Nathan Mensah San Diego State 0.8
8. JJ Caldwell New Mexico 0.8
9. Yanni Wetzell San Diego State 0.7
10. Abel Porter Utah State 0.7
11. Brock Miller Utah State 0.7
12. Justinian Jessup Boise State 0.7
13. Nico Carvacho Colorado State 0.7
14. Hunter Maldonado Wyoming 0.7
15. Jordan Schakel San Diego State 0.7
16. Matt Mitchell San Diego State 0.7
17. JaQuan Lyle New Mexico 0.6
18. KJ Feagin San Diego State 0.6
19. Nate Grimes Fresno State 0.6
20. Derrick Alston Boise State 0.6

Defensive Rating:

1. Nathan Mensah San Diego State 76.3
2. Justin Bean Utah State 80.2
3. Matt Mitchell San Diego State 83.4
4. Diogo Brito Utah State 84.5
5. Yanni Wetzell San Diego State 85.4
6. Alphonso Anderson Utah State 85.8
7. Malachi Flynn San Diego State 87.7
8. Roderick Williams Boise State 88.3
9. Carlton Bragg Jr. New Mexico 89.1
10. Sam Merrill Utah State 89.3
11. Jordan Schakel San Diego State 89.4
12. Abel Porter Utah State 91.2
13. KJ Feagin San Diego State 91.8
14. Brock Miller Utah State 92.3
15. Nate Grimes Fresno State 92.6
16. Justinian Jessup Boise State 94.2
17. JJ Caldwell New Mexico 95.5
18. Hunter Maldonado Wyoming 95.8
19. Nico Carvacho Colorado State 96.2
20. New Williams Fresno State 96.3

In the two measured defensive categories, Brock Miller is in the top 10% of the conference in both, ahead of a LOT of good players. The issue, again, is he's the 6th best rated defender on our team.

This will be ignored, and people will continue to insist that he's bad at basketball. Carry on.
I’ll suggest to you that two conference games is insufficient to draw any conclusions about Miller’s defensive ranking. I’ll wager he’s not going to be in the top 15 by season’s end. Regardless, he’s what we’ve got and we need to ride him. Hopefully his shooting % improves.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by ColoAggie » December 19th, 2019, 2:11 pm

ThunderAggie wrote:
December 19th, 2019, 12:45 pm
I do not like how much hate everyone has been giving Miller all season. I am not saying he has been playing well as it is apparent he has not been making shots, but we all get the point...Miller should get limited playing time and should not chuck up so many shots. No one comes and blames Brito after 0 points last night. Truth is the team has been struggling to hit shots. If you watch the game and have no ties to USU, you do not sit there and think Miller is an awful player. Yeah maybe you might think he is a bit of a chucker but he has nice form and is close on most of his attempts. He doesn’t turn it over too much, plays decent defense, and has played with the starters and knows the movements of the offense. I too have been frustrated with Miller, but as long as he isn’t chucking up over 6 three pointers (unless he is hot) I have nothing against playing him. I trust Smith and the staff to play who they know will give us the best chance of winning. I think if Miller expands his game a bit more, then he will be able to contribute more.
Agree with most of that, but he is NOT close on a majority of his shots. And honestly, when was the last time he was "hot"? I don't know what he needs to do, but whatever he's doing now is not working.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Blitz79 » December 19th, 2019, 3:09 pm

Back when I used to play, if I was struggling with my shot I would change it just a little. I would flatten the shot(not as much of an arc) and I would put a tiny bit more juice on it. A big arc means the ball has to travel further making it more likely to be off target plus I would have to grip it a bit tighter in my hands. Once was back in the groove you go back to your normal/don't think about it/let it fly shot.

Im not sure if Brock can do this with his jump shot form. He has been shooting bucks lately.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by frankiesaysrelax » December 19th, 2019, 3:49 pm

Changing your shot to get out of a slump isn’t a smart move unless it’s fundamentally flawed to begin with but he might be doing something small like not spreading his fingers out out enough or something small that he could fix. The best thing to do when your shot is off is to go to the hole or crash the boards harder. Just be more active anyway you can. This is why you will rarely see Bean have offensives struggles. He makes himself involved the whole game. Guys that hang at the three line all game are usually streaky shooters and it’s all or nothing a lot of times.

About the tip ball at the end, I thought the ref was calling the shot off at first because of miller going over the back. The more I watched though I don’t even think he touched the ball and two USF players fought over board and knocked it out of each other’s hands. I think if Miller affected the play he should have been called for a foul.
Last edited by frankiesaysrelax on December 19th, 2019, 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by lcrasmus » December 19th, 2019, 4:17 pm

utaggies wrote:
lcrasmus wrote:
December 18th, 2019, 10:36 pm
Also, to reiterate a point that got ignored in another thread.

Miller is top 15 in the conference in both Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares.

Defensive Rating
2019-20 MWC 92.3 (14th)
Defensive Win Shares
2019-20 MWC 0.7 (11th)

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/pl ... ler-1.html

I know, once again, that it's very in vogue to say "I've observed him to be a bad defender" but you're wrong.

Let's break down a bit why with the full lists of each.

Win Shares:

1. Justin Bean Utah State 1.2
2. Diogo Brito Utah State 1.0
3. Sam Merrill Utah State 0.9
4. Carlton Bragg Jr. New Mexico 0.9
5. Alphonso Anderson Utah State 0.8
6. Malachi Flynn San Diego State 0.8
7. Nathan Mensah San Diego State 0.8
8. JJ Caldwell New Mexico 0.8
9. Yanni Wetzell San Diego State 0.7
10. Abel Porter Utah State 0.7
11. Brock Miller Utah State 0.7
12. Justinian Jessup Boise State 0.7
13. Nico Carvacho Colorado State 0.7
14. Hunter Maldonado Wyoming 0.7
15. Jordan Schakel San Diego State 0.7
16. Matt Mitchell San Diego State 0.7
17. JaQuan Lyle New Mexico 0.6
18. KJ Feagin San Diego State 0.6
19. Nate Grimes Fresno State 0.6
20. Derrick Alston Boise State 0.6

Defensive Rating:

1. Nathan Mensah San Diego State 76.3
2. Justin Bean Utah State 80.2
3. Matt Mitchell San Diego State 83.4
4. Diogo Brito Utah State 84.5
5. Yanni Wetzell San Diego State 85.4
6. Alphonso Anderson Utah State 85.8
7. Malachi Flynn San Diego State 87.7
8. Roderick Williams Boise State 88.3
9. Carlton Bragg Jr. New Mexico 89.1
10. Sam Merrill Utah State 89.3
11. Jordan Schakel San Diego State 89.4
12. Abel Porter Utah State 91.2
13. KJ Feagin San Diego State 91.8
14. Brock Miller Utah State 92.3
15. Nate Grimes Fresno State 92.6
16. Justinian Jessup Boise State 94.2
17. JJ Caldwell New Mexico 95.5
18. Hunter Maldonado Wyoming 95.8
19. Nico Carvacho Colorado State 96.2
20. New Williams Fresno State 96.3

In the two measured defensive categories, Brock Miller is in the top 10% of the conference in both, ahead of a LOT of good players. The issue, again, is he's the 6th best rated defender on our team.

This will be ignored, and people will continue to insist that he's bad at basketball. Carry on.
I’ll suggest to you that two conference games is insufficient to draw any conclusions about Miller’s defensive ranking. I’ll wager he’s not going to be in the top 15 by season’s end. Regardless, he’s what we’ve got and we need to ride him. Hopefully his shooting % improves.
The numbers are compiled over all games. The comparisons are only made within conference opponents. It's not a selective sampling, only a selective comparison.




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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by NVAggie » December 19th, 2019, 4:19 pm

When your jumper isn't falling you need to get to the foul line and recalibrate.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Real Life Aggie » December 19th, 2019, 4:21 pm

lcrasmus wrote:
December 19th, 2019, 4:17 pm

The numbers are compiled over all games. The comparisons are only made within conference opponents. It's not a selective sampling, only a selective comparison.

When nerds clap back.
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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by ThunderAggie » December 19th, 2019, 4:22 pm

Real Life Aggie wrote:
December 19th, 2019, 4:21 pm
lcrasmus wrote:
December 19th, 2019, 4:17 pm

The numbers are compiled over all games. The comparisons are only made within conference opponents. It's not a selective sampling, only a selective comparison.

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Like one of my high school teachers used to always say....
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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by OrangeCountyAggie » January 2nd, 2020, 1:09 am

I don't get it! Is Miller shooting like Ray Allen in practice? Why is this dude still getting minutes and given free reign to keep jacking them up?



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by NVAggie » January 2nd, 2020, 9:54 am

Miller didn’t play any more poorly than Brito or Anderson.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Jdav » January 2nd, 2020, 12:07 pm

You guys, its a simple fix. Somebody tell him the three point line moved. Problem solved.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by treesap32 » January 2nd, 2020, 3:01 pm

NVAggie wrote:
January 2nd, 2020, 9:54 am
Miller didn’t play any more poorly than Brito or Anderson.
He played better than both. Did have TONS of turnovers though.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Dwigt » January 2nd, 2020, 10:14 pm

He currently is:
34/107 for three
26/48 inside the arc
9/9 from the line

I wish he would go inside more.


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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by pablohoney » January 3rd, 2020, 9:16 am

He has a pretty nice drive and floater. But 31% on 107 3pt attempts is a large enough sample size to realize that he should probably go from 7 3 pt attempts per game down to maybe just 2 or 3.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by pablohoney » January 3rd, 2020, 9:19 am

Also, let's put this into its proper perspective. He has missed a whopping 209 more 3 pointers in his USU career than Brayden Bell did.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Mr. Sneelock » January 3rd, 2020, 9:31 am

I'm too lazy to do the math, but l am guessing that if you take out games against St. Katherine's and Eastern Oregon and the like, his percentages will look worse.

We need guys who can step up and score in big games.


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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Mr. Sneelock » January 3rd, 2020, 9:34 am

ThunderAggie wrote:
December 19th, 2019, 12:45 pm
I do not like how much hate everyone has been giving Miller all season. I am not saying he has been playing well as it is apparent he has not been making shots, but we all get the point...Miller should get limited playing time and should not chuck up so many shots. No one comes and blames Brito after 0 points last night. Truth is the team has been struggling to hit shots. If you watch the game and have no ties to USU, you do not sit there and think Miller is an awful player. Yeah maybe you might think he is a bit of a chucker but he has nice form and is close on most of his attempts. He doesn’t turn it over too much, plays decent defense, and has played with the starters and knows the movements of the offense. I too have been frustrated with Miller, but as long as he isn’t chucking up over 6 three pointers (unless he is hot) I have nothing against playing him. I trust Smith and the staff to play who they know will give us the best chance of winning. I think if Miller expands his game a bit more, then he will be able to contribute more.

I blame Brito. He had been a pile of hot streaming (I can't express myself without swearing) the past few games.


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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Aggie84025 » January 3rd, 2020, 9:44 am

Miller has been showing he can drive and make shots, i hope continues to do that. I also dislike all the people ragging on Miller. Everybody outside of being was very underwhelming in that game in fact most of them played like a hot mess. I hope that Brito can start finding his shot we really need him as another scorer.



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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Dwigt » January 3rd, 2020, 9:47 am

Mr. Sneelock wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 9:31 am
I'm too lazy to do the math, but l am guessing that if you take out games against St. Katherine's and Eastern Oregon and the like, his percentages will look worse.

We need guys who can step up and score in big games.
He went 10/28 in those two games for 35.7%
Hi is 24/79 in the remaining games for 30.4%


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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by Mr. Sneelock » January 3rd, 2020, 1:19 pm

Dwigt wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 9:47 am
Mr. Sneelock wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 9:31 am
I'm too lazy to do the math, but l am guessing that if you take out games against St. Katherine's and Eastern Oregon and the like, his percentages will look worse.

We need guys who can step up and score in big games.
He went 10/28 in those two games for 35.7%
Hi is 24/79 in the remaining games for 30.4%
:thanks: That just isn't good enough for a 3 point specialist. In fact, it isn't really even close.
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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by jpswensen » January 3rd, 2020, 2:33 pm

Albeit a small sample size (only 3 games), in conference play he is currently 2-15 (13%) shooting the 3PT.

In our Quadrant 3 and above games he is:
LSU 1-2
UNT 0-3
STM 2-5
BYU 1-3
SFL 1-5
UFL 2-4
UNLV 1-7

TOTAL: 8-29 == 27.5%

So basically he is a sharpshooter against poor competition and really, really bad against anyone Q3 or better.
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Re: I'm out on Miller

Post by frankiesaysrelax » January 3rd, 2020, 4:02 pm

jpswensen wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 2:33 pm
Albeit a small sample size (only 3 games), in conference play he is currently 2-15 (13%) shooting the 3PT.

In our Quadrant 3 and above games he is:
LSU 1-2
UNT 0-3
STM 2-5
BYU 1-3
SFL 1-5
UFL 2-4
UNLV 1-7

TOTAL: 8-29 == 27.5%

So basically he is a sharpshooter against poor competition and really, really bad against anyone Q3 or better.
or anyone who plays defense and gets a hand in his face.



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