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UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
- ViAggie
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UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
Interesting article: http://projects.huffingtonpost.com/ncaa ... t-any-cost
UVU ranks #2
USU not ranked but considered "substantially subsidized"
Utah ranked "mostly self-sustaining"
Boise "somewhat subsidized"
UVU ranks #2
USU not ranked but considered "substantially subsidized"
Utah ranked "mostly self-sustaining"
Boise "somewhat subsidized"
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
ViAggie wrote:Interesting article: http://projects.huffingtonpost.com/ncaa ... t-any-cost
UVU ranks #2
USU not ranked but considered "substantially subsidized"
Utah ranked "mostly self-sustaining"
Boise "somewhat subsidized"
The formation of Utah Valley University was one of the biggest boondoggles in the history of higher education. Utah Technical College, later Utah Valley Community college, later Utah Valley State College, later Utah Valley University was the work of Utah County Legislators that wanted to make a name for themselves (like most lawmakers) to create BYU lite in Utah County. The State Board of Education had written mission statements for each of the state-owned colleges and universities. UVCC was not meant to be a university. And by transitioning from a technical trade school to a "wannabe" university, it defied its mission statement and left a void in technical training that is much needed in the state (Snow College is doing the same thing).
The state has spent countless millions to build UVU up into a 4-year school that is not known outside of the state. What should have happened is:
UVCC should have continued to operate as a junior college offering technical and trade programs like they always had. Their athletic programs should have continued operating at the junior college level with CEU, SLCC, CSI, etc. Utah State University should have established a presence at the Orem Campus and offered 4-year degrees as USU-Utah County (or something). That way - those that wanted to transition from a JC to a 4-year school could do it seamlessly at the same school, and when that person completed school and got a degree, it was from USU, which has name recognition and is fully accredited. No more expense would have been required to gain accreditation nationally.
It's a shame, really. And now we see what a financial drag it is on the state.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
I know many disagree, but I have no problem with having more state colleges out there. We could have more than we have. There needs to be more JC's, More CCs and more universities. We don't need just a couple of huge 30,000 student + universities. Each college is a huge benefit to the nearby community and creates a better-educated population which leads to a population which makes more money, leading to a better economy. Every dollar we spend to improve education is a good investment.
Looking at the enrollment at UVU it's obvious the demand was there for it to expand.
Looking at the enrollment at UVU it's obvious the demand was there for it to expand.
Last edited by brownjeans on November 16th, 2015, 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
Got to agree with Yossarian on this. Just because it now has huge enrollment, doesn't show the need. I would bet that USU and Utah are getting a smaller per centage of Utah county kids than they did before the expansion. They could have just been a satellite campus and people could still have gotten their degrees.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
I think community colleges serve a valuable purpose. It never should have been made a university.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
California has a wildly successful 2yr Jr. College program. They are extremely affordable, and extremely accessible, with about one for every 250-300K people or so. The county I grew up in had three and we had just under 700,000 people. They often times gear their curriculum towards the nearest University, be it a Cal State or UC school. They keep their costs down by functioning more like an extended HS rather than a full blown University. There is no on-campus housing, limited (need for) security, or need for extensive infrastructure. Most have sports programs, some are limited to just Olympic sports or less. Only the larger more established schools have football. They also offer tons of classes within the community, continued education, gardening classes and things like that. They'll even let upper class HS students enroll in classes during the summer months and at nights, so if you want to get a jump-start on your education, your free to do so. I can't understand why the State of Utah would be so complicit in allowing it's few JC's to be turned into full blown Universities by a handful of Empire builders looking to make a name for themselves. The State should have set up a JC system that ran all of the colleges. You wouldn't have Weber, UVU, Dixie, and likely not even SUU had that been the case. And really, would these places have been missed? USU could have set up satellite campuses in some of these areas to allow for professional development, cont. education, etc.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
Education is becoming more and more important. With the increase in importance we need more advanced schools. JC education isn't going to be enough. The MS is the new BA.
So if we're going to keep up, we need as many schools providing BA/BS degrees as we used to have JCs, We need as many schools offering MS degrees as we used to have offering BA/BS degrees. We need as many schools offering PhDs as we used to have offering MS degrees.
I think we do have a gap in JCs, CCs and Trade Schools, but just because there's a gap in the lower level doesn't mean we didn't need more in the upper level too. We did. Now we need to backfill and target the right areas so that people don't have to move/travel to go to a JC or CC.
So if we're going to keep up, we need as many schools providing BA/BS degrees as we used to have JCs, We need as many schools offering MS degrees as we used to have offering BA/BS degrees. We need as many schools offering PhDs as we used to have offering MS degrees.
I think we do have a gap in JCs, CCs and Trade Schools, but just because there's a gap in the lower level doesn't mean we didn't need more in the upper level too. We did. Now we need to backfill and target the right areas so that people don't have to move/travel to go to a JC or CC.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
Why couldn't the students that go to uvu attend Utah state, Utah, Weber or SUU? You seem to be saying that if we weren't funding uvu those poor students would be stuck without an education and working at McDonald's the rest of their lives.brownjeans wrote:Education is becoming more and more important. With the increase in importance we need more advanced schools. JC education isn't going to be enough. The MS is the new BA.
So if we're going to keep up, we need as many schools providing BA/BS degrees as we used to have JCs, We need as many schools offering MS degrees as we used to have offering BA/BS degrees. We need as many schools offering PhDs as we used to have offering MS degrees.
I think we do have a gap in JCs, CCs and Trade Schools, but just because there's a gap in the lower level doesn't mean we didn't need more in the upper level too. We did. Now we need to backfill and target the right areas so that people don't have to move/travel to go to a JC or CC.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
I see the need for more good tech schools, don't see why there is such a stigma on them. After all I good welder makes more than a philosopher.
Also, California JC system has a lot of issues as the state is going bankrupt
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Also, California JC system has a lot of issues as the state is going bankrupt
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“Apathy and tolerance are the final virtues of a dying society.” - Aristotle
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
Before UVSC became UVU they were offering degrees programs from other Universities in the state. They had an MBA program that was offered through Utah State. I have a few friends that earned MBA's from USU and never once set foot in Logan. I actually liked the setup.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
I'm saying I have no problem with creating another school. There's obvious advantages to the surrounding population - and thus the people. Utah County, as much as I hate it, has the population to support a State University and should have one. BYU is catering more and more to LDS kids from out of Utah. So BYU doesn't serve the community. Satellite campuses are lame, there's no pride to be had, no college experience. Expecting everyone to move or commute for school doesn't serve the community.2004AG wrote:Why couldn't the students that go to uvu attend Utah state, Utah, Weber or SUU? You seem to be saying that if we weren't funding uvu those poor students would be stuck without an education and working at McDonald's the rest of their lives.brownjeans wrote:Education is becoming more and more important. With the increase in importance we need more advanced schools. JC education isn't going to be enough. The MS is the new BA.
So if we're going to keep up, we need as many schools providing BA/BS degrees as we used to have JCs, We need as many schools offering MS degrees as we used to have offering BA/BS degrees. We need as many schools offering PhDs as we used to have offering MS degrees.
I think we do have a gap in JCs, CCs and Trade Schools, but just because there's a gap in the lower level doesn't mean we didn't need more in the upper level too. We did. Now we need to backfill and target the right areas so that people don't have to move/travel to go to a JC or CC.
So yeah, I have no problem with the second largest metro area in Utah having a State University. It makes sense.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
PULLLLEEEEEZZZZ, the State of California is not going BK, not even close. We have a balanced budget and we're the worlds 7 largest economy.
The JC issues from the late 90's and early 2000's have largely been solved. Yes the are heavily subsidized but THAT'S THE POINT! To make it affordable and to make getting a four year degree accessible to those who can't afford for paying 4 years at a University. California Universities also give preference to JC transfers.
I agree about the importance of education, but you have to understand that the JC is not an end game; no one really gets an AA anymore, most just transfer after two years to a University. It's a good place to focus on education without all of the distractions of being at a 4 year University. The whole idea of the Cal JC's is that you can continue to live at home, payer lower tuition, save up to finish up your last 4 years at the University level. The Universities like it because it allows them the take in students from out of state (who pay big bucks in OOST) and weed out less serious students.
The JC issues from the late 90's and early 2000's have largely been solved. Yes the are heavily subsidized but THAT'S THE POINT! To make it affordable and to make getting a four year degree accessible to those who can't afford for paying 4 years at a University. California Universities also give preference to JC transfers.
I agree about the importance of education, but you have to understand that the JC is not an end game; no one really gets an AA anymore, most just transfer after two years to a University. It's a good place to focus on education without all of the distractions of being at a 4 year University. The whole idea of the Cal JC's is that you can continue to live at home, payer lower tuition, save up to finish up your last 4 years at the University level. The Universities like it because it allows them the take in students from out of state (who pay big bucks in OOST) and weed out less serious students.
Last edited by ViAggie on November 17th, 2015, 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
Were you responding to me or did you quote the wrong post?ViAggie wrote:PULLLLEEEEEZZZZ, the State of California is not going BK, not even close. We have a balanced budget and we're the worlds 7 largest economy.ProvoAggie wrote:Before UVSC became UVU they were offering degrees programs from other Universities in the state. They had an MBA program that was offered through Utah State. I have a few friends that earned MBA's from USU and never once set foot in Logan. I actually liked the setup.
The JC issues from the late 90's and early 2000's have largely been solved. Yes the are heavily subsidized but THAT'S THE POINT! To make it affordable and to make getting a four year degree accessible to those who can't afford for paying 4 years at a University. California Universities also give preference to JC transfers.
I agree about the importance of education, but you have to understand that the JC is not an end game; no one really gets an AA anymore, most just transfer after two years to a University. It's a good place to focus on education without all of the distractions of being at a 4 year University. The whole idea of the Cal JC's is that you can continue to live at home, payer lower tuition, save up to finish up your last 4 years at the University level. The Universities like it because it allows them the take in students from out of state (who pay big bucks in OOST) and weed out less serious students.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
The issue is administrative costs, not just the facilities. The biggest issue that came up during the push by our fine governor (then a state senator out of ewetteawe county) to creep UVSC's mission up into stand-alone university status was the library. The ewetteawe county people can find donors for buildings all they want, but they cannot and never intended to self-fund the library. UVSC should have stayed a JC, just like SLCC, and the Weber Center in Layton should have been made a JC instead of a colony of Weber State.brownjeans wrote:I'm saying I have no problem with creating another school. There's obvious advantages to the surrounding population - and thus the people. Utah County, as much as I hate it, has the population to support a State University and should have one. BYU is catering more and more to LDS kids from out of Utah. So BYU doesn't serve the community. Satellite campuses are lame, there's no pride to be had, no college experience. Expecting everyone to move or commute for school doesn't serve the community. So yeah, I have no problem with the second largest metro area in Utah having a State University. It makes sense.2004AG wrote:Why couldn't the students that go to uvu attend Utah state, Utah, Weber or SUU? You seem to be saying that if we weren't funding uvu those poor students would be stuck without an education and working at McDonald's the rest of their lives.brownjeans wrote:Education is becoming more and more important. With the increase in importance we need more advanced schools. JC education isn't going to be enough. The MS is the new BA.
So if we're going to keep up, we need as many schools providing BA/BS degrees as we used to have JCs, We need as many schools offering MS degrees as we used to have offering BA/BS degrees. We need as many schools offering PhDs as we used to have offering MS degrees. I think we do have a gap in JCs, CCs and Trade Schools, but just because there's a gap in the lower level doesn't mean we didn't need more in the upper level too. We did. Now we need to backfill and target the right areas so that people don't have to move/travel to go to a JC or CC.
And, while we're discussing costs of operation, you just made the argument in your last sentence that ewetteawe county deserves a larger share of the higher ed state money pie than Cache County, simply because it's the second most populous county ... and that St George should have parity with Cache County because its population roughly equals Cache County's.
Ain't nuthin' wrong with shipping the ewetteawe and Dixie County kids to Logan for their university experience.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
What is the word "ewetteawe" supposed to be? Is that some disparaging phoneme for Utah? I love the word Utah, it's the name of this state. I love this state.USU78 wrote:The issue is administrative costs, not just the facilities. The biggest issue that came up during the push by our fine governor (then a state senator out of ewetteawe county) to creep UVSC's mission up into stand-alone university status was the library. The ewetteawe county people can find donors for buildings all they want, but they cannot and never intended to self-fund the library. UVSC should have stayed a JC, just like SLCC, and the Weber Center in Layton should have been made a JC instead of a colony of Weber State.brownjeans wrote:I'm saying I have no problem with creating another school. There's obvious advantages to the surrounding population - and thus the people. Utah County, as much as I hate it, has the population to support a State University and should have one. BYU is catering more and more to LDS kids from out of Utah. So BYU doesn't serve the community. Satellite campuses are lame, there's no pride to be had, no college experience. Expecting everyone to move or commute for school doesn't serve the community. So yeah, I have no problem with the second largest metro area in Utah having a State University. It makes sense.
And, while we're discussing costs of operation, you just made the argument in your last sentence that ewetteawe county deserves a larger share of the higher ed state money pie than Cache County, simply because it's the second most populous county ... and that St George should have parity with Cache County because its population roughly equals Cache County's.
Ain't nuthin' wrong with shipping the ewetteawe and Dixie County kids to Logan for their university experience.
Costs are to the people. If you ship your kids out of town to school, the costs to the people increase a lot.
Every dollar spent on education is going to return more dollars. The Library, or a school in general, likely won't balance the books in the traditional sense. Education is a long term investment in the population. A school educates the population increasing their earning potential and the overall economy which increases the tax revenue. It's a long-term gain.
The only reason I have a degree is because I grew up close to USU. My parents couldn't afford to send me away to school. I never considered going to school anywhere but USU, it wasn't an option. There are people like me that need a school close by. I have no problem providing schools for higher education close to where people live. It makes sense.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
You keep arguing the wisdom of educating the populace, nobody is arguing that point.brownjeans wrote:What is the word "ewetteawe" supposed to be? Is that some disparaging phoneme for Utah? I love the word Utah, it's the name of this state. I love this state.USU78 wrote:The issue is administrative costs, not just the facilities. The biggest issue that came up during the push by our fine governor (then a state senator out of ewetteawe county) to creep UVSC's mission up into stand-alone university status was the library. The ewetteawe county people can find donors for buildings all they want, but they cannot and never intended to self-fund the library. UVSC should have stayed a JC, just like SLCC, and the Weber Center in Layton should have been made a JC instead of a colony of Weber State.brownjeans wrote:I'm saying I have no problem with creating another school. There's obvious advantages to the surrounding population - and thus the people. Utah County, as much as I hate it, has the population to support a State University and should have one. BYU is catering more and more to LDS kids from out of Utah. So BYU doesn't serve the community. Satellite campuses are lame, there's no pride to be had, no college experience. Expecting everyone to move or commute for school doesn't serve the community. So yeah, I have no problem with the second largest metro area in Utah having a State University. It makes sense.
And, while we're discussing costs of operation, you just made the argument in your last sentence that ewetteawe county deserves a larger share of the higher ed state money pie than Cache County, simply because it's the second most populous county ... and that St George should have parity with Cache County because its population roughly equals Cache County's.
Ain't nuthin' wrong with shipping the ewetteawe and Dixie County kids to Logan for their university experience.
Costs are to the people. If you ship your kids out of town to school, the costs to the people increase a lot.
Every dollar spent on education is going to return more dollars. The Library, or a school in general, likely won't balance the books in the traditional sense. Education is a long term investment in the population. A school educates the population increasing their earning potential and the overall economy which increases the tax revenue. It's a long-term gain.
The only reason I have a degree is because I grew up close to USU. My parents couldn't afford to send me away to school. I never considered going to school anywhere but USU, it wasn't an option. There are people like me that need a school close by. I have no problem providing schools for higher education close to where people live. It makes sense.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
my badProvoAggie wrote:ViAggie wrote:ProvoAggie wrote:Were you responding to me or did you quote the wrong post?
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
Oh! Oh! I will! I will!2004AG wrote:You keep arguing the wisdom of educating the populace, nobody is arguing that point.
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The question is, what is the right distribution of education, both in terms of extent of education, and specific type or content of education. Sure, every citizen should be able to read, write, do basic math, understand certain fundamental principles of science necessary to function in society (you shouldn't grab those wires, because of this stuff called electricity), fundamental civics, and moral absolutes (don't hurt people and don't take their stuff), but beyond that, it gets more complicated.
Let's do a little thought experiment. How about we educate everyone to the level of a PhD in History. We'll have a VERY highly educated population! And 99.8% of them will be either unemployed or working in a field in which a PhD in History is totally irrelevant. In this scenario, the welder (and there will have to be welders) will have totally wasted his time and money spent getting the PhD in History, AND he will still have to have spent the additional 2-4 years getting trained as a welder. The money spent on that PhD does NOT contribute to the wealth of society. In fact, is a pure cost, with no associated increase in productivity. It makes him, and all of us, poorer.
Now, I know we aren't educating everyone to the level of a PhD in history. That's an extreme hypothetical to illustrate the point. What we DO have is serious distortion of the educational market place producing maldistribution of resources. Too many people are spending too much time and money getting degrees that are not productive for them, or society.
Frankly, I think half the kids in college right now are wasting their time and money. They should be in apprenticeship programs as electricians, plumbers, machinists, mechanics, and yes, welders. Their time and money would be spent much more efficiently and productively. The last thing we need is another Starbucks barista with a masters degree in queer latina feminist studies. If you want some hard data, consider this. In 1970, 1% of New York cabbies had college degrees. Now, 15% of cabbies have college degrees. This at a time when GPS technology is making driving a cab much easier, Uber is destroying the taxi industry altogether, and self driving cars are going to make the whole issue moot. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-2 ... axis-.html
Remember the "Occupy Wall Street" folks? Most of them were not laid-off auto workers from Detroit. Most of them were twenty-something kids who had worthless degrees from expensive northeastern private colleges, $250,000 in student debt, and were either unemployed, or terribly underemployed. (How do you get a kid with a bachelor's degree in philosophy off your front porch? Pay for the pizza! What's the difference between a guy with a bachelor's degree in philosophy, and a large pizza? A large pizza can feed a family of four!)
So yes, I'm against more universities for the sake of having more universities. I'm also against directionless education without regard for the desired end result, as an end unto itself.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
Do you recommend we evaluate aptitude at an early age and place people on a track to optimum utility for the society as a whole?
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
No.brownjeans wrote:Do you recommend we evaluate aptitude at an early age and place people on a track to optimum utility for the society as a whole?
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
Now, let me elaborate.
I believe that the free market is the most efficient method for allocating resources. Subsidies distort market forces. A large part of the reason that the rate of inflation for higher education has greatly exceeded the rate of inflation for the economy as a whole over the last 25 years has been the influence of various subsidies. That's the macro effect. The micro effect is people wasting time getting unmarketable degrees because they know they won't have to pay the full cost of that education. In a free market with no distortions, people will make self-interested choices that ultimately produce the most efficient distribution of resources for the population as a whole. Does that mean the distribution is ideal for any given individual? No. Just collectively for the whole economy.
If that seems unfeeling, it's because it is. Market economics is amoral. No immoral; amoral. The market isn't good or evil. It doesn't care about your feelings. It doesn't care about anything. It is the market. It is just efficient.
I believe that the free market is the most efficient method for allocating resources. Subsidies distort market forces. A large part of the reason that the rate of inflation for higher education has greatly exceeded the rate of inflation for the economy as a whole over the last 25 years has been the influence of various subsidies. That's the macro effect. The micro effect is people wasting time getting unmarketable degrees because they know they won't have to pay the full cost of that education. In a free market with no distortions, people will make self-interested choices that ultimately produce the most efficient distribution of resources for the population as a whole. Does that mean the distribution is ideal for any given individual? No. Just collectively for the whole economy.
If that seems unfeeling, it's because it is. Market economics is amoral. No immoral; amoral. The market isn't good or evil. It doesn't care about your feelings. It doesn't care about anything. It is the market. It is just efficient.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
The problem with free market is that no one has really lived in that type of environment. In a Utopian atmosphere it would flourish. In the world of man, it is easily manipulated.
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Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
If our education system had been governed by free-market principles, it would look much more like I'm describing, with large schools by large populations, or at least many small schools by large populations, and a few small schools by small populations. USU would probably be a small school with about 1/3rd the enrollment it currently has.LKGates wrote:Now, let me elaborate.
I believe that the free market is the most efficient method for allocating resources. Subsidies distort market forces. A large part of the reason that the rate of inflation for higher education has greatly exceeded the rate of inflation for the economy as a whole over the last 25 years has been the influence of various subsidies. That's the macro effect. The micro effect is people wasting time getting unmarketable degrees because they know they won't have to pay the full cost of that education. In a free market with no distortions, people will make self-interested choices that ultimately produce the most efficient distribution of resources for the population as a whole. Does that mean the distribution is ideal for any given individual? No. Just collectively for the whole economy.
If that seems unfeeling, it's because it is. Market economics is amoral. No immoral; amoral. The market isn't good or evil. It doesn't care about your feelings. It doesn't care about anything. It is the market. It is just efficient.
Re: UVU athletics - the 2nd most subsidized in the US
I also agree that UVU should never exist and the school would serve the community much more effectively as JC. It also means more resources could have been devoted to USU and Utah. Out East the only people who have heard of UVU are from Utah and it will likely always remain that way.
In many respects I like the Penn State system. There are 24 campuses throughout Pennsylvania, with State College the largest. It is extremely rare for a freshman to be accepted to State College; the vast majority spend their first two years at one of the satellite campuses before transferring to State College for their final two years. Each campus is accredited and offer four-year degrees. Many also offer various graduate degrees and have D-II or D-III athletic programs. A version of this model would have been worth considering in Utah instead of transitioning existing schools up to four-year schools. And as the land grant institution in Utah, USU would have been the best school to accomplish this.
In many respects I like the Penn State system. There are 24 campuses throughout Pennsylvania, with State College the largest. It is extremely rare for a freshman to be accepted to State College; the vast majority spend their first two years at one of the satellite campuses before transferring to State College for their final two years. Each campus is accredited and offer four-year degrees. Many also offer various graduate degrees and have D-II or D-III athletic programs. A version of this model would have been worth considering in Utah instead of transitioning existing schools up to four-year schools. And as the land grant institution in Utah, USU would have been the best school to accomplish this.