Holy Utah Jazz

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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by Mr. Sneelock » June 11th, 2021, 10:38 am

slcagg wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 10:30 am
Where would you guys rank Donovan as players in the nba? Top 15? Top 10? Top 20?
Overall? Probably top 10 - and still improving.

This is a tough question, because not everyone is at the same point in their respective careers, and it is hard to know what the metric is. Are we talking about who we would take if we are starting a team right now? Is it just who we think is the best right now, regardless of future prospects? Is it who would we trade him for straight across?

The only ones I would definitely rank ahead of him for right now (no consideration of the future) in no particular order are LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Giannis, Steph Curry (maybe), Jokic (probably). Harden is probably also on that list, but I hate him so I am not sure how much that clouds my judgment. There are a number of players that would be maybes.

The thing is that most of the guys on the list are considerably older. The two best comps in my opinion are Lillard and Wade.
Mitchell is still improving and likely hasn't hit his prime yet. I think he is already better than prime Lillard, and by the time he is done will be better than prime Wade. He has an ability to turn his game to overdrive, throw a team on his back, and will his team to victory. Few players have that ability.
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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by Yossarian » June 11th, 2021, 11:12 am

Mr. Sneelock wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 10:38 am
slcagg wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 10:30 am
Where would you guys rank Donovan as players in the nba? Top 15? Top 10? Top 20?
Overall? Probably top 10 - and still improving.

This is a tough question, because not everyone is at the same point in their respective careers, and it is hard to know what the metric is. Are we talking about who we would take if we are starting a team right now? Is it just who we think is the best right now, regardless of future prospects? Is it who would we trade him for straight across?

The only ones I would definitely rank ahead of him for right now (no consideration of the future) in no particular order are LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Giannis, Steph Curry (maybe), Jokic (probably). Harden is probably also on that list, but I hate him so I am not sure how much that clouds my judgment. There are a number of players that would be maybes.

The thing is that most of the guys on the list are considerably older. The two best comps in my opinion are Lillard and Wade.
Mitchell is still improving and likely hasn't hit his prime yet. I think he is already better than prime Lillard, and by the time he is done will be better than prime Wade. He has an ability to turn his game to overdrive, throw a team on his back, and will his team to victory. Few players have that ability.
I know they play different positions/roles on their teams, but.....

Would you trade Mitchell for Zion Williamson right now?


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by dirtnsnow » June 11th, 2021, 11:26 am

Yossarian wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 11:12 am
Mr. Sneelock wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 10:38 am
slcagg wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 10:30 am
Where would you guys rank Donovan as players in the nba? Top 15? Top 10? Top 20?
Overall? Probably top 10 - and still improving.

This is a tough question, because not everyone is at the same point in their respective careers, and it is hard to know what the metric is. Are we talking about who we would take if we are starting a team right now? Is it just who we think is the best right now, regardless of future prospects? Is it who would we trade him for straight across?

The only ones I would definitely rank ahead of him for right now (no consideration of the future) in no particular order are LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Giannis, Steph Curry (maybe), Jokic (probably). Harden is probably also on that list, but I hate him so I am not sure how much that clouds my judgment. There are a number of players that would be maybes.

The thing is that most of the guys on the list are considerably older. The two best comps in my opinion are Lillard and Wade.
Mitchell is still improving and likely hasn't hit his prime yet. I think he is already better than prime Lillard, and by the time he is done will be better than prime Wade. He has an ability to turn his game to overdrive, throw a team on his back, and will his team to victory. Few players have that ability.
I know they play different positions/roles on their teams, but.....

Would you trade Mitchell for Zion Williamson right now?
I know you weren't asking me specifically, but that's an intriguing question. If I want to win now, I go with Mitchell. I think Zion has a higher ceiling, but has work to do. Is he willing to do it? If not, he'll be another Blake Griffin. Incredibly athletic, fun to watch, but not able to lead a team to the level I want the jazz to be. Donovan has shown he can and does put in the work, so if I'm in "win now" mode, I pick him. If I'm rebuilding, I would want to meet Zion and get a feel for his personality. Is he cool just being the next hyped guy? Or is he hungry to be the best?


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by SwaggieAggie » June 11th, 2021, 11:34 am

Assuming we finish and close it out against LA, is everyone’s feelings here they’ll be finals bound?



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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by dirtnsnow » June 11th, 2021, 11:39 am

SwaggieAggie wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 11:34 am
Assuming we finish and close it out against LA, is everyone’s feelings here they’ll be finals bound?
Phoenix isn't a gimme. The jazz coasted for large stretches against Memphis, and again against LA (had to come back in the first game, and let them back in it the second). If they can learn to keep their foot on the gas the entire game, then I think they beat Phoenix. If not, I think the suns would win in 6.


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by 3rdGenAggie » June 11th, 2021, 11:46 am

In the playoffs he's like top 8 at worst (top 2 or 3 in THIS playoffs at worst). In the regular season he's top 15 but making his way quickly up the ranks.

It's a shame he won't be All NBA this year because of the number of guards that had great seasons. I don't think All NBA should be split up by position. Top 5 players are 1st team, next 5 are 2nd team, next 5 are 3rd team. If it's guard heavy, so be it...it's a guard driven league.

Watching that Stephen A clip was bad. I've been convincing myself the Jazz can't win the championship to protect my heart. But I'm starting to believe it's possible.
Last edited by 3rdGenAggie on June 11th, 2021, 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by Mr. Sneelock » June 11th, 2021, 12:00 pm

Yossarian wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 11:12 am
Mr. Sneelock wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 10:38 am
slcagg wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 10:30 am
Where would you guys rank Donovan as players in the nba? Top 15? Top 10? Top 20?
Overall? Probably top 10 - and still improving.

This is a tough question, because not everyone is at the same point in their respective careers, and it is hard to know what the metric is. Are we talking about who we would take if we are starting a team right now? Is it just who we think is the best right now, regardless of future prospects? Is it who would we trade him for straight across?

The only ones I would definitely rank ahead of him for right now (no consideration of the future) in no particular order are LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Giannis, Steph Curry (maybe), Jokic (probably). Harden is probably also on that list, but I hate him so I am not sure how much that clouds my judgment. There are a number of players that would be maybes.

The thing is that most of the guys on the list are considerably older. The two best comps in my opinion are Lillard and Wade.
Mitchell is still improving and likely hasn't hit his prime yet. I think he is already better than prime Lillard, and by the time he is done will be better than prime Wade. He has an ability to turn his game to overdrive, throw a team on his back, and will his team to victory. Few players have that ability.
I know they play different positions/roles on their teams, but.....

Would you trade Mitchell for Zion Williamson right now?
I don't know. That's hard, and since I am a major homer, I have obviously seen way more Mitchell than Zion. I do think Zion Williamson's ceiling is higher. We haven't seen that combo of size and athleticism since LeBron (or maybe ever). He is fascinating. Mitchell is the better player right now, but that may not be true in a few years. I do have concerns about Zion's body and his ability to stay healthy - nothing specific, just my personal observations and concerns. The man is big - and it ain't all muscle either. That was the thing about LeBron. He was/is huge, but he was built like Karl Malone -- only way more athletic. Zion is built like Charles Barkley and Shaq had a baby - but way more athletic than both - which is what makes him good. I'm not 100% convinced his body will hold up to the amount of strain he'll have to put on it to maintain the athleticism that makes him such a unique player. For me it all comes down to work ethic, love for the game, and the will to win. I know Mitchell has all 3 of those things, but I don't know if Zion does - it remains to be seen. If he does, then I probably take Zion over Mitchell. I haven't seen Zion take over games or will his team to victory like Mitchell can. And we haven't seen Zion in a playoff game or series yet. Can he rise to the occasion and be great when it matters most? I don't know. But I do know Mitchell can.
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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by 3rdGenAggie » June 11th, 2021, 1:32 pm

I share the concerns with Zion. The guy is incredible, but can that hulking body of his withstand the pounding of 82+ games season after season? Or can he transform his body and game as he gets older? If so, he'll be a Hall of Famer, if not he could just be another "what if".


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by brownjeans » June 11th, 2021, 2:40 pm

slcagg wrote:
June 10th, 2021, 11:32 pm
Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote:
June 10th, 2021, 11:30 pm
2 down, 2 to go.
They are beat up. They need Conley back to help take away some of the beating.
In the fourth last night I thought - we're going to lose this one because we miss Conley, but then Ingles killed them on the next two possessions. Good to see him getting back to himself.



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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by Mr. Sneelock » June 11th, 2021, 5:05 pm

Here's another interesting question:. Is Rudy Gobert the best interior defensive player ever?


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » June 11th, 2021, 5:17 pm

Donovan is a top 10 player in the league and the best playoff player over the last 2 years. He was incredible against Denver. Literally one of the best offensive series performances of all time. Had Conley made the shot in game 7, that series would be talked about all the time. Obviously he has also been amazing through 6 games this year.



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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by Yossarian » June 11th, 2021, 5:42 pm

With a 2-0 lead over LAC, could the Jazz afford to sit Conley for one more game and also sit Mitchell to rest that ankle? Then they could come back stronger to close out the series.


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by dirtnsnow » June 11th, 2021, 5:54 pm

Yossarian wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 5:42 pm
With a 2-0 lead over LAC, could the Jazz afford to sit Conley for one more game and also sit Mitchell to rest that ankle? Then they could come back stronger to close out the series.
I'd rather see the killer instinct come out.
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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by Mr. Sneelock » June 11th, 2021, 8:14 pm

dirtnsnow wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Yossarian wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 5:42 pm
With a 2-0 lead over LAC, could the Jazz afford to sit Conley for one more game and also sit Mitchell to rest that ankle? Then they could come back stronger to close out the series.
I'd rather see the killer instinct come out.
I don't think you mess around in the playoffs.
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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by TrueBlueFan » June 11th, 2021, 11:11 pm

Mr. Sneelock wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 8:14 pm
dirtnsnow wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Yossarian wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 5:42 pm
With a 2-0 lead over LAC, could the Jazz afford to sit Conley for one more game and also sit Mitchell to rest that ankle? Then they could come back stronger to close out the series.
I'd rather see the killer instinct come out.
I don't think you mess around in the playoffs.
I agree. The Clippers just came back from 2-0….let’s not let them do it again.
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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by dirtnsnow » June 11th, 2021, 11:22 pm

TrueBlueFan wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 11:11 pm
Mr. Sneelock wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 8:14 pm
dirtnsnow wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Yossarian wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 5:42 pm
With a 2-0 lead over LAC, could the Jazz afford to sit Conley for one more game and also sit Mitchell to rest that ankle? Then they could come back stronger to close out the series.
I'd rather see the killer instinct come out.
I don't think you mess around in the playoffs.
I agree. The Clippers just came back from 2-0….let’s not let them do it again.
And came back from a 21 point deficit.


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by GeoAg » June 12th, 2021, 7:24 am

Mr. Sneelock wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 5:05 pm
Here's another interesting question:. Is Rudy Gobert the best interior defensive player ever?
The rules are so different now it is tough to tell. Illegal defense rules are relaxed, you can't be a physical on the perimeter...all if these devalues the traditional post up game and makes it much easier to get in top of the bucket going downhill...he doesn't face the same type of internal pressure Mutombo, Eaton, Mourning, and Olojuwan dealt with. On the other hand...

Eaton and Mutombo would have been unplayable in today's NBA. Rudy could have played then but would have gotten bullied in the post a lot I think. He would have had more blocks, but I think less of an overall impact.

He is just uniquely adapted to today's game. With the style and rules changes we are comparing apples and oranges


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by Intermeddler » June 12th, 2021, 10:21 am

GeoAg wrote:
June 12th, 2021, 7:24 am
Mr. Sneelock wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 5:05 pm
Here's another interesting question:. Is Rudy Gobert the best interior defensive player ever?
The rules are so different now it is tough to tell. Illegal defense rules are relaxed, you can't be a physical on the perimeter...all if these devalues the traditional post up game and makes it much easier to get in top of the bucket going downhill...he doesn't face the same type of internal pressure Mutombo, Eaton, Mourning, and Olojuwan dealt with. On the other hand...

Eaton and Mutombo would have been unplayable in today's NBA. Rudy could have played then but would have gotten bullied in the post a lot I think. He would have had more blocks, but I think less of an overall impact.

He is just uniquely adapted to today's game. With the style and rules changes we are comparing apples and oranges
So hard to say across eras. I think the argument for Rudy is that it’s never been easier for offensive players to get into the paint. No hand checking, space and pace offensive styles, and expanding the area under the arc makes it far easier than before. Plus every team runs high pick and roll all the time which forces him not only to defend the initial action but drop and defend the rim and recover. It’s remarkable how good he is at all of it.

Just take the Clippers. I’ll try and find the tweet but they’re shooting basically the same percentages against us as they did against Dallas from the corner 3, above the break 3, and midrange. Against Dallas they shot 62% around or near the rim. Against us, it’s 36% around or near the rim.

He might be the most impactful defender ever period regardless of position.



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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by Yossarian » June 12th, 2021, 9:41 pm

They should have listened to me and rested Mitchell tonight.


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » June 12th, 2021, 10:29 pm

After his reaction to game 1 against Memphis, Mitchell isn't going to sit for a playoff game unless he can't walk.



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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by 3rdGenAggie » June 12th, 2021, 10:38 pm

Conley is amazing, but at this point I'm starting to remember that the best ability is availability. The Jazz could sure use him.


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by TrueBlueFan » June 13th, 2021, 7:16 am

We missed Mike a lot tonight. I’m afraid that without our backcourt 100% we are going to struggle.


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by Yossarian » June 13th, 2021, 11:30 am

Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote:
June 12th, 2021, 10:29 pm
After his reaction to game 1 against Memphis, Mitchell isn't going to sit for a playoff game unless he can't walk.
Watching him limp up the tunnel with the ice pack on his ankle after the game last night, that may just be the situation.


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by slcagg » June 13th, 2021, 8:46 pm

The suns really got a fortunate position. The teams they played to get to the conference finals were injured. Jazz and clips are gonna beat each other up.



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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by brownjeans » June 13th, 2021, 11:24 pm

The Suns super hot right now. I hope they get rusty waiting.



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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by LoveMyAggies » June 14th, 2021, 6:34 am

Yossarian wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 11:12 am
Mr. Sneelock wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 10:38 am
slcagg wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 10:30 am
Where would you guys rank Donovan as players in the nba? Top 15? Top 10? Top 20?
Overall? Probably top 10 - and still improving.

This is a tough question, because not everyone is at the same point in their respective careers, and it is hard to know what the metric is. Are we talking about who we would take if we are starting a team right now? Is it just who we think is the best right now, regardless of future prospects? Is it who would we trade him for straight across?

The only ones I would definitely rank ahead of him for right now (no consideration of the future) in no particular order are LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Giannis, Steph Curry (maybe), Jokic (probably). Harden is probably also on that list, but I hate him so I am not sure how much that clouds my judgment. There are a number of players that would be maybes.

The thing is that most of the guys on the list are considerably older. The two best comps in my opinion are Lillard and Wade.
Mitchell is still improving and likely hasn't hit his prime yet. I think he is already better than prime Lillard, and by the time he is done will be better than prime Wade. He has an ability to turn his game to overdrive, throw a team on his back, and will his team to victory. Few players have that ability.
I know they play different positions/roles on their teams, but.....

Would you trade Mitchell for Zion Williamson right now?
no

given what I know today. You can always second guess future events. Let's say they both have long prosperous careers, Keep Mitchell, because I think he has a better chance of finishing his career in Utah.

Wade would have finished only playing in Miami if it weren't for the friendships with James and co, and being from Chicago growing up watching MJ. I think with Wade as part of Jazz ownership, they keep Mitchell till he retires.



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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by El Sapo » June 14th, 2021, 8:32 am

Probably see another back to the wall game by the Clips tonight. Going back to Utah even at 2-2 isn't the worst thing that could happen. Jazz plays like they are still a young team IMHO. Reminds me of the Warriors trying to advance before their championship run. They don't seem to have learned how to finish teams off. There are points in the game where winners change gears. Leonard knows when to do it. Can Mitchell?



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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by andytheaggie » June 14th, 2021, 9:01 am

El Sapo wrote:Probably see another back to the wall game by the Clips tonight. Going back to Utah even at 2-2 isn't the worst thing that could happen. Jazz plays like they are still a young team IMHO. Reminds me of the Warriors trying to advance before their championship run. They don't seem to have learned how to finish teams off. There are points in the game where winners change gears. Leonard knows when to do it. Can Mitchell?
In my limited time watching Leonard, I'd say Mitchell has every bit the killer mentality that he has. Unfortunately, the surrounding cast doesn't always follow suit. Let's hope this is the year.


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by brownjeans » June 14th, 2021, 12:12 pm

El Sapo wrote:
June 14th, 2021, 8:32 am
Probably see another back to the wall game by the Clips tonight. Going back to Utah even at 2-2 isn't the worst thing that could happen. Jazz plays like they are still a young team IMHO. Reminds me of the Warriors trying to advance before their championship run. They don't seem to have learned how to finish teams off. There are points in the game where winners change gears. Leonard knows when to do it. Can Mitchell?
Where was Leonard's gear change in games one and two?



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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by slcagg » June 14th, 2021, 4:12 pm

No mike Conley again 🥲🥲🥲



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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by Yossarian » June 14th, 2021, 9:26 pm

Well, Jazz, it was fun while it lasted. Now i can go back to not watching NBA basketball.


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » June 14th, 2021, 10:41 pm

Yossarian wrote:
June 13th, 2021, 11:30 am
Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote:
June 12th, 2021, 10:29 pm
After his reaction to game 1 against Memphis, Mitchell isn't going to sit for a playoff game unless he can't walk.
Watching him limp up the tunnel with the ice pack on his ankle after the game last night, that may just be the situation.
Mitchell was great both games in LA. You can't load manage in the playoffs when your season is on the line.



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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by 3rdGenAggie » June 14th, 2021, 11:29 pm

Woof.


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by usu99 » June 15th, 2021, 8:26 am

The Jazz bench SUCKS. It is going to cost them this series.


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Re: Holy Utah Jazz

Post by 3rdGenAggie » June 15th, 2021, 8:42 am

Lose game 5 and it's over. Win it and we'll see what happens.

Does Conley play if he's not 100%? I kinda doubt it, but we'll see.


"I have no idea what I'm doing, but I know I'm doing it really, really well." -Andy Dwyer

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