NAR: Jazz Next Steps

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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by 918AGG » June 29th, 2021, 9:56 am

I don't know why Favors sniffed the floor in the Clippers series. At some point his +/- was -30 and yet Quin kept trotting him out there. Quin got out-coached by Ty Lue plain and simple. At some point, perhaps after the 50,000,000th Mann head fake and Gobert fall to the floor, you have to pull Gobert and adjust to what your opponent is doing. If we don't have an answer for that on the bench, we need to pull some value via trade and fix the issue. Gobert is great, but there's a way to expose him defensively. Luckily for the Jazz, not every team is built for this style of ball the way that the Clippers are. The Clippers are better coached and were the perfect yin to the Jazz's competitive yang.

I don't think there's a simple answer for what ails the Jazz, but I want to look critically at what Bogdanovich, Ingles, Favors and O'Neale bring that we can't live without. I'd die to trade up and get Davion Mitchell from Baylor (his nickname is literally "off day" because when he guards someone, they have an off day). Ben Simmons' stock is currently so low that I wonder what it would take to buy low and lean into his wing defense and see what we can do about his offense. Lonzo would be interesting, but I think we need more than that. If Bojan is worth $18M to you per year, I have no idea what to say. Brandon Ingram seems gettable and adds some size and speed on the perimeter. These are just some ideas.

It's flatly absurd to blame any of this on the Azubuike pick.


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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by 918AGG » June 29th, 2021, 10:10 am

ususports wrote:
June 21st, 2021, 2:52 pm
usu99 wrote:
June 21st, 2021, 2:04 pm
what a joke for these guys to be making that much...... just such a waste in the world these days.
My favorite is when players make comments about how they need to make sure their family is taken care of. Donovan Mitchell made that type of comment when the media announced his $195 million contract. I can only imagine (hypothetically speaking), the Jazz offered $194 million, and Donovan replied, "Dude, I have to make sure I do what is best for my family and make sure they are taken care of, can you go to $195 million? I don't want them living on the streets, so that is the lowest I will go."
This is such nonsense. On the one hand, we want the Jazz to win the Championship. On the other, it's completely maddening when a Top 30 player in the world wants to get paid like a Top 30 player in the world. Donnie is better at basketball than either of you will ever be at anything, ever, and it's not even close. Let that sink in.

As for being paid too much, consider the fact that he works for someone who is more than willing to write the check.


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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by Mr. Sneelock » June 29th, 2021, 6:49 pm

The top 0.0001% of pretty much any profession is insanely well compensated. Especially when there is significant demand for their services. Athletes are just more visible to you than most.

How much do you think the very best neurosurgeon makes? Lawyer? Sales rep? CEO?

They are paid what they are worth, and are worth what they are paid. That's how it works.

NBA owners aren't exactly hemorrhaging money.


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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by 3rdGenAggie » June 29th, 2021, 9:08 pm

918AGG wrote:
June 29th, 2021, 9:56 am
I don't know why Favors sniffed the floor in the Clippers series. At some point his +/- was -30 and yet Quin kept trotting him out there. Quin got out-coached by Ty Lue plain and simple. At some point, perhaps after the 50,000,000th Mann head fake and Gobert fall to the floor, you have to pull Gobert and adjust to what your opponent is doing. If we don't have an answer for that on the bench, we need to pull some value via trade and fix the issue. Gobert is great, but there's a way to expose him defensively. Luckily for the Jazz, not every team is built for this style of ball the way that the Clippers are. The Clippers are better coached and were the perfect yin to the Jazz's competitive yang.

I don't think there's a simple answer for what ails the Jazz, but I want to look critically at what Bogdanovich, Ingles, Favors and O'Neale bring that we can't live without. I'd die to trade up and get Davion Mitchell from Baylor (his nickname is literally "off day" because when he guards someone, they have an off day). Ben Simmons' stock is currently so low that I wonder what it would take to buy low and lean into his wing defense and see what we can do about his offense. Lonzo would be interesting, but I think we need more than that. If Bojan is worth $18M to you per year, I have no idea what to say. Brandon Ingram seems gettable and adds some size and speed on the perimeter. These are just some ideas.

It's flatly absurd to blame any of this on the Azubuike pick.
Ingram would be absolutely amazing. I just don't see any world in which they Jazz could get him with the assets they may be willing to part with.

And the Azibuike pick did not cause this situation, but it didn't help it where a Bane or McDaniels pick might have. It's early still, but I'd bet quite a bit it ends up being a terrible pick. Especially considering how obvious the right pick was in that situation.


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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by 918AGG » July 1st, 2021, 10:41 am

3rdGenAggie wrote:
June 29th, 2021, 9:08 pm
918AGG wrote:
June 29th, 2021, 9:56 am
I don't know why Favors sniffed the floor in the Clippers series. At some point his +/- was -30 and yet Quin kept trotting him out there. Quin got out-coached by Ty Lue plain and simple. At some point, perhaps after the 50,000,000th Mann head fake and Gobert fall to the floor, you have to pull Gobert and adjust to what your opponent is doing. If we don't have an answer for that on the bench, we need to pull some value via trade and fix the issue. Gobert is great, but there's a way to expose him defensively. Luckily for the Jazz, not every team is built for this style of ball the way that the Clippers are. The Clippers are better coached and were the perfect yin to the Jazz's competitive yang.

I don't think there's a simple answer for what ails the Jazz, but I want to look critically at what Bogdanovich, Ingles, Favors and O'Neale bring that we can't live without. I'd die to trade up and get Davion Mitchell from Baylor (his nickname is literally "off day" because when he guards someone, they have an off day). Ben Simmons' stock is currently so low that I wonder what it would take to buy low and lean into his wing defense and see what we can do about his offense. Lonzo would be interesting, but I think we need more than that. If Bojan is worth $18M to you per year, I have no idea what to say. Brandon Ingram seems gettable and adds some size and speed on the perimeter. These are just some ideas.

It's flatly absurd to blame any of this on the Azubuike pick.
Ingram would be absolutely amazing. I just don't see any world in which they Jazz could get him with the assets they may be willing to part with.

And the Azibuike pick did not cause this situation, but it didn't help it where a Bane or McDaniels pick might have. It's early still, but I'd bet quite a bit it ends up being a terrible pick. Especially considering how obvious the right pick was in that situation.
How about this?
Image


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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by 918AGG » July 1st, 2021, 10:41 am

3rdGenAggie wrote:
June 29th, 2021, 9:08 pm
918AGG wrote:
June 29th, 2021, 9:56 am
I don't know why Favors sniffed the floor in the Clippers series. At some point his +/- was -30 and yet Quin kept trotting him out there. Quin got out-coached by Ty Lue plain and simple. At some point, perhaps after the 50,000,000th Mann head fake and Gobert fall to the floor, you have to pull Gobert and adjust to what your opponent is doing. If we don't have an answer for that on the bench, we need to pull some value via trade and fix the issue. Gobert is great, but there's a way to expose him defensively. Luckily for the Jazz, not every team is built for this style of ball the way that the Clippers are. The Clippers are better coached and were the perfect yin to the Jazz's competitive yang.

I don't think there's a simple answer for what ails the Jazz, but I want to look critically at what Bogdanovich, Ingles, Favors and O'Neale bring that we can't live without. I'd die to trade up and get Davion Mitchell from Baylor (his nickname is literally "off day" because when he guards someone, they have an off day). Ben Simmons' stock is currently so low that I wonder what it would take to buy low and lean into his wing defense and see what we can do about his offense. Lonzo would be interesting, but I think we need more than that. If Bojan is worth $18M to you per year, I have no idea what to say. Brandon Ingram seems gettable and adds some size and speed on the perimeter. These are just some ideas.

It's flatly absurd to blame any of this on the Azubuike pick.
Ingram would be absolutely amazing. I just don't see any world in which they Jazz could get him with the assets they may be willing to part with.

And the Azibuike pick did not cause this situation, but it didn't help it where a Bane or McDaniels pick might have. It's early still, but I'd bet quite a bit it ends up being a terrible pick. Especially considering how obvious the right pick was in that situation.
How about this?


Image

Throw in some picks and call it a day. And, yes, I do think that the Pellies know that Zion and Ingram don't work as a tandem and that Zion is their guy.
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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by 3rdGenAggie » July 1st, 2021, 10:51 am

918AGG wrote:
July 1st, 2021, 10:41 am
3rdGenAggie wrote:
June 29th, 2021, 9:08 pm
918AGG wrote:
June 29th, 2021, 9:56 am
I don't know why Favors sniffed the floor in the Clippers series. At some point his +/- was -30 and yet Quin kept trotting him out there. Quin got out-coached by Ty Lue plain and simple. At some point, perhaps after the 50,000,000th Mann head fake and Gobert fall to the floor, you have to pull Gobert and adjust to what your opponent is doing. If we don't have an answer for that on the bench, we need to pull some value via trade and fix the issue. Gobert is great, but there's a way to expose him defensively. Luckily for the Jazz, not every team is built for this style of ball the way that the Clippers are. The Clippers are better coached and were the perfect yin to the Jazz's competitive yang.

I don't think there's a simple answer for what ails the Jazz, but I want to look critically at what Bogdanovich, Ingles, Favors and O'Neale bring that we can't live without. I'd die to trade up and get Davion Mitchell from Baylor (his nickname is literally "off day" because when he guards someone, they have an off day). Ben Simmons' stock is currently so low that I wonder what it would take to buy low and lean into his wing defense and see what we can do about his offense. Lonzo would be interesting, but I think we need more than that. If Bojan is worth $18M to you per year, I have no idea what to say. Brandon Ingram seems gettable and adds some size and speed on the perimeter. These are just some ideas.

It's flatly absurd to blame any of this on the Azubuike pick.
Ingram would be absolutely amazing. I just don't see any world in which they Jazz could get him with the assets they may be willing to part with.

And the Azibuike pick did not cause this situation, but it didn't help it where a Bane or McDaniels pick might have. It's early still, but I'd bet quite a bit it ends up being a terrible pick. Especially considering how obvious the right pick was in that situation.
How about this?


Image

Throw in some picks and call it a day. And, yes, I do think that the Pellies know that Zion and Ingram don't work as a tandem and that Zion is their guy.
As a Jazz fan I'd jump on that in a heartbeat. I really like Ingram. Zion has already started his superstar grumblings though. They'll likely have to trade him before long and may want to keep Ingram, unless they want to go back into rebuild mode.


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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by brownjeans » July 20th, 2021, 11:30 pm

brownjeans wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 6:21 pm
Yossarian wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 2:12 pm
brownjeans wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 1:28 pm
NBA is funny... people tend to focus on stars and think superstars win championships. Perhaps championship teams create superstars.

Look at that list, how many of those players won with just run-of-the-mill NBA players on their team? Not many. Most those teams have multiple hall of famers. Basketball is still a team sport.
for sure it is a team sport. Closer inspection of that list show that they are typically big guys - 6-6 and taller. Their supporting cast came in all shapes and sizes, but the superstars were all typically big, athletic guys that were good at basketball (Curry and Thomas being the exceptions). This goes back to my post just above it - I don't think Donovan Mitchell will win an NBA championship with a team on which he is the leading scorer. I think he could be the No.2 or 3 scorer on a championship team, but he needs a bigger player to step up and take over the leading role. And like you said, a stronger supporting cast.

Is it possible a superstar demands so much attention that he allows the supporting cast to succeed?
So either Bucs or Clips to win this year? The other two teams have a leading scorer who is too short - but there are exceptions.
Well, looks like Yoss was right. :thanks:
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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by Yossarian » July 21st, 2021, 7:35 pm

brownjeans wrote:
July 20th, 2021, 11:30 pm
brownjeans wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 6:21 pm
Yossarian wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 2:12 pm
brownjeans wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 1:28 pm
NBA is funny... people tend to focus on stars and think superstars win championships. Perhaps championship teams create superstars.

Look at that list, how many of those players won with just run-of-the-mill NBA players on their team? Not many. Most those teams have multiple hall of famers. Basketball is still a team sport.
for sure it is a team sport. Closer inspection of that list show that they are typically big guys - 6-6 and taller. Their supporting cast came in all shapes and sizes, but the superstars were all typically big, athletic guys that were good at basketball (Curry and Thomas being the exceptions). This goes back to my post just above it - I don't think Donovan Mitchell will win an NBA championship with a team on which he is the leading scorer. I think he could be the No.2 or 3 scorer on a championship team, but he needs a bigger player to step up and take over the leading role. And like you said, a stronger supporting cast.

Is it possible a superstar demands so much attention that he allows the supporting cast to succeed?
So either Bucs or Clips to win this year? The other two teams have a leading scorer who is too short - but there are exceptions.
Well, looks like Yoss was right. :thanks:
That happens on rare occasions
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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by 3rdGenAggie » July 21st, 2021, 8:04 pm

So, has anyone been following the draft?

I love the draft, because optimism reigns. Everyone is an all-star on draft night. I've been watching some mock drafts and I kinda hope the Jazz can find a trade for 30 and get two high-ish 2nd rounders.

I'd love to see the Jazz take a chance on a couple high-risk, high-reward guys like Isaac Todd, Vrenz Bleijenbergh, or JT Thor.
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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » July 21st, 2021, 8:25 pm

Yeah I want the Jazz to take Ayo Dosunmu from Illinois who should be drafted late first round/early second round. Good scorer who was a decent 3pt shooter while also a good defender. The type of rotation player that could have been real valuable against the Clippers.
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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by 3rdGenAggie » July 26th, 2021, 2:24 pm

brownjeans wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 6:21 pm
Yossarian wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 2:12 pm
brownjeans wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 1:28 pm
NBA is funny... people tend to focus on stars and think superstars win championships. Perhaps championship teams create superstars.

Look at that list, how many of those players won with just run-of-the-mill NBA players on their team? Not many. Most those teams have multiple hall of famers. Basketball is still a team sport.
for sure it is a team sport. Closer inspection of that list show that they are typically big guys - 6-6 and taller. Their supporting cast came in all shapes and sizes, but the superstars were all typically big, athletic guys that were good at basketball (Curry and Thomas being the exceptions). This goes back to my post just above it - I don't think Donovan Mitchell will win an NBA championship with a team on which he is the leading scorer. I think he could be the No.2 or 3 scorer on a championship team, but he needs a bigger player to step up and take over the leading role. And like you said, a stronger supporting cast.

Is it possible a superstar demands so much attention that he allows the supporting cast to succeed?
So either Bucs or Clips to win this year? The other two teams have a leading scorer who is too short - but there are exceptions.

I think you have a valid point, but I think the NBA is different than it was even a few years ago. The game seems to favor a different kind of player than it used to. If the game has changed then it makes sense that Steph is winning championships as a short leading scorer and if the Suns or Hawks win it would add data to the game-is-different-now theory.
But still, if you're comparing two players with the same skills and one is five inches taller than the other, go with the taller guy.

What if the Jazz put Dame on the team with Mitchell? That's a lot of firepower, but both are under 6'6".
I just spent way to much time digging into this idea and I think you may be on to something.

Over the last 20 years (this date was arbitrary, but covers the "modern NBA) back to the 2001 NBA Finals Tony Parker (2014) and Steph Curry (2015) are the only players under 6'4" to lead their team in scoring during the playoffs and/or NBA Finals and ultimately win the championship.

In 2014, Tony Parker led the Spurs in playoff scoring (despite only averaging 17.4 PPG) and Steph Curry led the Warriors in 2015 (28.3 PPG).

Out of curiosity, I narrowed it down to leading scorers under 6'4" in just the NBA Finals (whose team ultimately won) and found it is the same two players and years. Tony Parker averaged 18 PPG in the Finals for the 2014 Spurs (Kawhi Leonard scored 17.8) and Steph Curry scored 26 PPG for the 2015 Warriors.

What's more, if you move the line up to players under 6'6", you only add Dwayne Wade for the Heat in 2006. So, over the last 20 years, only 3 players shorter than 6'6" have led their team in playoff and/or finals scoring and won an NBA Championship.


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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by Olderthandirt » August 2nd, 2021, 3:49 pm

I keep waiting to see the Jazz try Brantley as a small ball 5. He has great strength and mobility. If he can hit a 3.....
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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by slcagg » August 3rd, 2021, 10:11 pm

Looks like the jazz got their small ball 5 today and regular backup 5 today in Rudy gay and Hassan whiteside.

I’m curious what is their 2 deep for next year?



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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by GeoAg » August 3rd, 2021, 10:46 pm

G: Conley, ?
G: Mitchell, Clarkson
F: Bogie, Ingles
F: O'Neal, Gay
C: Rudy, Whiteside

Need a real backup point to take pressure off of Mitchell and Ingles when Conley is on the bench or resting. Could also us one more 3&D wing

Rudy Gay will be the small ball 5..
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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by LoveMyAggies » August 3rd, 2021, 11:49 pm

GeoAg wrote:
August 3rd, 2021, 10:46 pm
G: Conley, ?
G: Mitchell, Clarkson
F: Bogie, Ingles
F: O'Neal, Gay
C: Rudy, Whiteside

Need a real backup point to take pressure off of Mitchell and Ingles when Conley is on the bench or resting. Could also us one more 3&D wing

Rudy Gay will be the small ball 5..
According to my friend TJones on twitter, a couple of line-ups would follow with the small ball and depth chart.

G: Conley, Butler
G: Mitchell, Clarkson
F: Bogie, Ingles
F: O'Neal, Gay
C: Rudy, Whiteside

small ball lineups

Conley -- Conley
Clarkson -- Mitchell
Mitchell -- O'Neale
Bogie -- Bogie
Gay -- Gay

It will be very interesting to see how quickly Butler makes an impact on the Jazz, (Maybe Eric Gordonesque)

Another dynamic I can see happening is Ingles off the Bench with Gay and Whiteside, (now instead of Favors) running the pick and roll.

Conley and Gobert are great together in the Pick and Roll.

Man, I wish Malone or somebody who cared, could spend the summer with Rudy and help him develop his post-up game 10 feet in, to the basket. (hook shots, bank shots, both hands etc, Dude is getting a Max contract and is an All-star, he should be improving offensively)

Thoughts?
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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by brownjeans » August 4th, 2021, 6:38 am

I think the flaws that were exposed by the Clippers are still flaws.
Who can stay in front of their man?



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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by slcagg » August 14th, 2021, 10:48 am

Find a way to keep Trent Forrest



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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by 3rdGenAggie » August 14th, 2021, 11:40 am

slcagg wrote:
August 14th, 2021, 10:48 am
Find a way to keep Trent Forrest
They signed him to another two-way. If the guy could shoot he'd be really quite good.


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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by 3rdGenAggie » August 14th, 2021, 11:42 am

brownjeans wrote:
August 4th, 2021, 6:38 am
I think the flaws that were exposed by the Clippers are still flaws.
Who can stay in front of their man?
Whiteside isn't great, but he's heavier than Rudy and can score a bit in the post. Hopefully he could at least punish a small-ball lineup on offense a bit more than Rudy.


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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by slcagg » August 14th, 2021, 11:57 am

3rdGenAggie wrote:
August 14th, 2021, 11:42 am
brownjeans wrote:
August 4th, 2021, 6:38 am
I think the flaws that were exposed by the Clippers are still flaws.
Who can stay in front of their man?
Whiteside isn't great, but he's heavier than Rudy and can score a bit in the post. Hopefully he could at least punish a small-ball lineup on offense a bit more than Rudy.
I think the small ball answer is Rudy gay. Whiteside would be a disaster trying to guard someone in small ball.
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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by slcagg » August 14th, 2021, 11:57 am

3rdGenAggie wrote:
August 14th, 2021, 11:40 am
slcagg wrote:
August 14th, 2021, 10:48 am
Find a way to keep Trent Forrest
They signed him to another two-way. If the guy could shoot he'd be really quite good.
He is going to get a guaranteed offer.
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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by LoveMyAggies » August 23rd, 2021, 8:46 pm

looks like Conley's deal ended up being 3 years 68M + 4.5M signing bonus.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/utah-jazz/mike-conley-2532/



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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by treesap32 » August 27th, 2021, 2:42 pm

Whiteside is very talented, but has always been a head case. I remember when he showed up late to the NBA Draft Combine in flip flops. He could be so much better than he is.

I read an article saying that maybe being on a championship contending team would give him the drive he needs to actually try hard. Hopefully that's the case. I think it was worth the risk in signing him, being that the risk was very small. I'm excited to see what he can do.
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Re: NAR: Jazz Next Steps

Post by LoveMyAggies » August 28th, 2021, 10:50 pm

treesap32 wrote:Whiteside is very talented, but has always been a head case. I remember when he showed up late to the NBA Draft Combine in flip flops. He could be so much better than he is.

I read an article saying that maybe being on a championship contending team would give him the drive he needs to actually try hard. Hopefully that's the case. I think it was worth the risk in signing him, being that the risk was very small. I'm excited to see what he can do.
Maybe Quinn Snyder can get to him mentally in a good way like he did with Clarkson and some of the other players and get him to produce

What the Jazz are really missing is Championship experience. A couple three players who are physically imposing and mess up 90+% of the other teams players. Like Jae Crowder, or a PJ Tucker, players who would be worthy to play on the pistons in the Late 80’s or early 90’s



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