Non medical research ranking

LarryTheAggie · Post by **LarryTheAggie** » December 9th, 2023, 9:44 am

Since there is no non sports but Aggie related forum, I guess this is the defacto place to put this.

Tony Altimore has been posting a bunch of interesting graphs on reseach ranking by school, this one caught my attention. The non-medical reseach ranking.

From my count USU is ranked number 40 well above some of the Ivy League, half of the P5s and 2nd behind Colorado State for G5 schools. Also we pretty close to utah. In a year or two USU probably catches up with utah.

USU78 · Post by **USU78** » December 9th, 2023, 9:52 am

There's the graph that should accompany your resumes to demonstrate the value of your degree.

GoAgs!

bwcrc · Post by **bwcrc** » December 9th, 2023, 10:31 am

Thanks for sharing this. Except for the Ivy and B1G, USU would be in the top half of every P4 conference, no lower than second in every other conference, and is about 33rd among all public schools.

Also, there are several MWC schools that need to seriously step it up on the research side.

And while research doesn't really move the needle at all for conference affiliation, school administrators still care some because it helps ease some collaboration for research between schools.

LarryTheAggie · Post by **LarryTheAggie** » December 9th, 2023, 11:49 am

bwcrc wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 10:31 am
Thanks for sharing this. Except for the Ivy and B1G, USU would be in the top half of every P4 conference, no lower than second in every other conference, and is about 33rd among all public schools.

Also, there are several MWC schools that need to seriously step it up on the research side.

And while research doesn't really move the needle at all for conference affiliation, school administrators still care some because it helps ease some collaboration for research between schools.

It is interesting some of the schools that we are beating. Rice, Duke, Northwestern, Uconn, Umass, Virginia, Notre Dame. I am honestly shocked that we are beating those school.

I do disagree though that some MWC schools need to step up. It's not their mission and that is okay. Look at the Big10 and the MAC, there os a huge disparity between those schools and they cover pretty much the same geographic footprint(except for the new former Pac school). There are some excellent schools in the MAC(Buffalo and Miami and others) yet those schools are not even competitive with the lowest big10 school because they are teaching universities and that is okay.

Actually, I will sort of agree, some MW schools do need to step up, but I would consider those schools to be the ones in the middle of this list not the bottom. Nevada and UNLV are actually R1 schools but are not doing anything outside of the medical schools.

Also, give us a couple years to get the vet school running and that should boost our numbers here too.

Also, wouldn't it be cool if we could get a medical school...

AggieFBObsession · Post by **AggieFBObsession** » December 9th, 2023, 11:53 am

Is there any chance that you can research the word, reaseach?

SLB · Post by **SLB** » December 9th, 2023, 2:22 pm

I am for Utah State having a medical school and a law school which the continuous growth in the area which would end up helping the sports side of things.

travelingagg · Post by **travelingagg** » December 9th, 2023, 9:00 pm

Wow -- ahead of Yale, Brown, and Dartmouth. Plus almost equal to Utah and ahead of some schools with big-(I can't express myself without swearing) endowments like the University of Virginia. And Boise State is bringing in more dollars than BYU?! lol. Our College of Education alone pulls in more research dollars than all of BYU. Nice to see Utah State continue to thrive and grow in this space.

flying_scotsman2.0 · Post by **flying_scotsman2.0** » December 9th, 2023, 9:33 pm

travelingagg wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 9:00 pm
Wow -- ahead of Yale, Brown, and Dartmouth. Plus almost equal to Utah and ahead of some schools with big-(I can't express myself without swearing) endowments like the University of Virginia. And Boise State is bringing in more dollars than BYU?! lol. Our College of Education alone pulls in more research dollars than all of BYU. Nice to see Utah State continue to thrive and grow in this space.

Hopefully other departments can grow and hang on to the coattails of SDL. That’s driving a ton of research at USU.

I love seeing BYU with virtually no research expenditures. Mention that to a zoob and they’ll be pretty shocked. I’ve done it a few times, it’s pretty funny.

tovli · Post by **tovli** » December 9th, 2023, 9:58 pm

SLB wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 2:22 pm
I am for Utah State having a medical school and a law school which the continuous growth in the area which would end up helping the sports side of things.

Utah has the 5th highest average MCAT score in the nation but the lowest medical school matriculation rate of any state in the union by a long shot.

I’ve always thought it would be interesting to follow an Oklahoma/Michigan approach and have an MD school at the flagship university and a DO school at the land grant university. 2/3 of medical students out of USU go to DO programs.

LarryTheAggie · Post by **LarryTheAggie** » December 10th, 2023, 8:05 am

tovli wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 9:58 pm

SLB wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 2:22 pm
I am for Utah State having a medical school and a law school which the continuous growth in the area which would end up helping the sports side of things.
Utah has the 5th highest average MCAT score in the nation but the lowest medical school matriculation rate of any state in the union by a long shot.

I’ve always thought it would be interesting to follow an Oklahoma/Michigan approach and have an MD school at the flagship university and a DO school at the land grant university. 2/3 of medical students out of USU go to DO programs.

There is certainly demand for it. Michigan has like 6 universities with medical schools, no reason Utah can't have 2.

I wonder if there is any appetite at USU for it? I know that the state legislature would need to approve it, but it seems like it could get support there if USU wanted to do it.

USU78 · Post by **USU78** » December 10th, 2023, 9:15 am

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 8:05 am

tovli wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 9:58 pm

SLB wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 2:22 pm
I am for Utah State having a medical school and a law school which the continuous growth in the area which would end up helping the sports side of things.
Utah has the 5th highest average MCAT score in the nation but the lowest medical school matriculation rate of any state in the union by a long shot.

I’ve always thought it would be interesting to follow an Oklahoma/Michigan approach and have an MD school at the flagship university and a DO school at the land grant university. 2/3 of medical students out of USU go to DO programs.
There is certainly demand for it. Michigan has like 6 universities with medical schools, no reason Utah can't have 2.

I wonder if there is any appetite at USU for it? I know that the state legislature would need to approve it, but it seems like it could get support there if USU wanted to do it.

I can see it now: with a couple of phone calls to the right numbers by puke and bougar admins, a DO college at USU = public support for consumer fraud, and it dies.

flying_scotsman2.0 · Post by **flying_scotsman2.0** » December 10th, 2023, 12:06 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 8:05 am

tovli wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 9:58 pm

SLB wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 2:22 pm
I am for Utah State having a medical school and a law school which the continuous growth in the area which would end up helping the sports side of things.
Utah has the 5th highest average MCAT score in the nation but the lowest medical school matriculation rate of any state in the union by a long shot.

I’ve always thought it would be interesting to follow an Oklahoma/Michigan approach and have an MD school at the flagship university and a DO school at the land grant university. 2/3 of medical students out of USU go to DO programs.
There is certainly demand for it. Michigan has like 6 universities with medical schools, no reason Utah can't have 2.

I wonder if there is any appetite at USU for it? I know that the state legislature would need to approve it, but it seems like it could get support there if USU wanted to do it.

I’ve soapboxed on this several times on this site, so I’ll try to keep this short. USU 100% should have a medical school. The reason there are two new private DO schools in Utah is because there is high demand for a couple of reasons. I am in residency in Michigan and there are a bunch of schools. There are ~120 seats annually at utah, and ~1000 seats annually in Michigan. There are also residency programs at pretty much any hospital. Logan regional has 150 beds and not a sniff of a residency program. Similar sized hospitals here in Michigan have residencies in IM, emergency med, gen surg, and even more depending on the hospital. My hospital is overseen under the umbrella of MSU for residency programs. U of M has its own thing like utah, but MSU and Wayne State just use a bunch of the local private hospitals (like IHC, Mountain Star, etc.).

University of Utah has honestly done a terrible job of providing medical education to the state. Many state schools will accept almost no out of state students. The U accepts 1/3 of their class out of state. So only 80 seats for instate students. The kicker is they count anyone who graduated from a Utah high school as instate regardless of where they did undergrad, and they count anyone who graduated from a utah college (byu included) as instate regardless of where they grew up. So for those of us who grew up in utah and went to college in Utah, we have no advantage, which is why so many Utah students end up at DO schools. When I tell prospective med students my MCAT score, they are shocked because that score for them gets them almost automatically into half the state schools.

What USU needs to do is start a med school from the model of Michigan State, WSU, or Virginia Tech. Start a school and collaborate with local hospitals for the clinical education. It benefits both parties. Unfortunately, there probably isn’t support from the state. I emailed Cockett about this idea last year. She was receptive and interested in the idea, but obviously she kind of knew she was on the way out. My only fear is that Weber or UVU jumps on something like this before USU. There will be another med school in Utah at some point, and I hope we are proactive enough to get it at USU and grow it as much as possible.

tovli · Post by **tovli** » December 10th, 2023, 1:06 pm

flying_scotsman2.0 wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 12:06 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 8:05 am

tovli wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 9:58 pm

SLB wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 2:22 pm
I am for Utah State having a medical school and a law school which the continuous growth in the area which would end up helping the sports side of things.
Utah has the 5th highest average MCAT score in the nation but the lowest medical school matriculation rate of any state in the union by a long shot.

I’ve always thought it would be interesting to follow an Oklahoma/Michigan approach and have an MD school at the flagship university and a DO school at the land grant university. 2/3 of medical students out of USU go to DO programs.
There is certainly demand for it. Michigan has like 6 universities with medical schools, no reason Utah can't have 2.

I wonder if there is any appetite at USU for it? I know that the state legislature would need to approve it, but it seems like it could get support there if USU wanted to do it.
I’ve soapboxed on this several times on this site, so I’ll try to keep this short. USU 100% should have a medical school. The reason there are two new private DO schools in Utah is because there is high demand for a couple of reasons. I am in residency in Michigan and there are a bunch of schools. There are ~120 seats annually at utah, and ~1000 seats annually in Michigan. There are also residency programs at pretty much any hospital. Logan regional has 150 beds and not a sniff of a residency program. Similar sized hospitals here in Michigan have residencies in IM, emergency med, gen surg, and even more depending on the hospital. My hospital is overseen under the umbrella of MSU for residency programs. U of M has its own thing like utah, but MSU and Wayne State just use a bunch of the local private hospitals (like IHC, Mountain Star, etc.).

University of Utah has honestly done a terrible job of providing medical education to the state. Many state schools will accept almost no out of state students. The U accepts 1/3 of their class out of state. So only 80 seats for instate students. The kicker is they count anyone who graduated from a Utah high school as instate regardless of where they did undergrad, and they count anyone who graduated from a utah college (byu included) as instate regardless of where they grew up. So for those of us who grew up in utah and went to college in Utah, we have no advantage, which is why so many Utah students end up at DO schools. When I tell prospective med students my MCAT score, they are shocked because that score for them gets them almost automatically into half the state schools.

What USU needs to do is start a med school from the model of Michigan State, WSU, or Virginia Tech. Start a school and collaborate with local hospitals for the clinical education. It benefits both parties. Unfortunately, there probably isn’t support from the state. I emailed Cockett about this idea last year. She was receptive and interested in the idea, but obviously she kind of knew she was on the way out. My only fear is that Weber or UVU jumps on something like this before USU. There will be another med school in Utah at some point, and I hope we are proactive enough to get it at USU and grow it as much as possible.

As a current DO student I 100% agree with you. I think there needs to be a better expansion of residency programs in the state before a new medical school can be built. I think there is especially a lot of untapped opportunity and need in the rural areas of our state for that. But I also think one of our biggest issues standing in our way of that is the University of Utah having exclusive rights to teach medicine and law at state schools. Until the legislature gets involved there I don’t see much changing.

LarryTheAggie · Post by **LarryTheAggie** » December 10th, 2023, 1:07 pm

flying_scotsman2.0 wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 12:06 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 8:05 am

tovli wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 9:58 pm

SLB wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 2:22 pm
I am for Utah State having a medical school and a law school which the continuous growth in the area which would end up helping the sports side of things.
Utah has the 5th highest average MCAT score in the nation but the lowest medical school matriculation rate of any state in the union by a long shot.

I’ve always thought it would be interesting to follow an Oklahoma/Michigan approach and have an MD school at the flagship university and a DO school at the land grant university. 2/3 of medical students out of USU go to DO programs.
There is certainly demand for it. Michigan has like 6 universities with medical schools, no reason Utah can't have 2.

I wonder if there is any appetite at USU for it? I know that the state legislature would need to approve it, but it seems like it could get support there if USU wanted to do it.
I’ve soapboxed on this several times on this site, so I’ll try to keep this short. USU 100% should have a medical school. The reason there are two new private DO schools in Utah is because there is high demand for a couple of reasons. I am in residency in Michigan and there are a bunch of schools. There are ~120 seats annually at utah, and ~1000 seats annually in Michigan. There are also residency programs at pretty much any hospital. Logan regional has 150 beds and not a sniff of a residency program. Similar sized hospitals here in Michigan have residencies in IM, emergency med, gen surg, and even more depending on the hospital. My hospital is overseen under the umbrella of MSU for residency programs. U of M has its own thing like utah, but MSU and Wayne State just use a bunch of the local private hospitals (like IHC, Mountain Star, etc.).

University of Utah has honestly done a terrible job of providing medical education to the state. Many state schools will accept almost no out of state students. The U accepts 1/3 of their class out of state. So only 80 seats for instate students. The kicker is they count anyone who graduated from a Utah high school as instate regardless of where they did undergrad, and they count anyone who graduated from a utah college (byu included) as instate regardless of where they grew up. So for those of us who grew up in utah and went to college in Utah, we have no advantage, which is why so many Utah students end up at DO schools. When I tell prospective med students my MCAT score, they are shocked because that score for them gets them almost automatically into half the state schools.

What USU needs to do is start a med school from the model of Michigan State, WSU, or Virginia Tech. Start a school and collaborate with local hospitals for the clinical education. It benefits both parties. Unfortunately, there probably isn’t support from the state. I emailed Cockett about this idea last year. She was receptive and interested in the idea, but obviously she kind of knew she was on the way out. My only fear is that Weber or UVU jumps on something like this before USU. There will be another med school in Utah at some point, and I hope we are proactive enough to get it at USU and grow it as much as possible.

I have a newborn that has been in the NICU at 3 hospitals in Detroit (two Henry Ford, and now Childrens) for the past 2 months. It seems that everyone I talk to is a resident at each of the three hospitals.

It is also interesting because ever doctor that I know here did medschool in Michigan. In Utah I felt like I never met doctor that did their training in Utah.

Have you sent an email to Cantwell? I am interest to know what she thinks. I wonder if they are so focused on getting the vet program running that they wouldn't even touch it at this time.

LarryTheAggie · Post by **LarryTheAggie** » December 10th, 2023, 1:13 pm

tovli wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 1:06 pm

flying_scotsman2.0 wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 12:06 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 8:05 am

tovli wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 9:58 pm

SLB wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 2:22 pm
I am for Utah State having a medical school and a law school which the continuous growth in the area which would end up helping the sports side of things.
Utah has the 5th highest average MCAT score in the nation but the lowest medical school matriculation rate of any state in the union by a long shot.

I’ve always thought it would be interesting to follow an Oklahoma/Michigan approach and have an MD school at the flagship university and a DO school at the land grant university. 2/3 of medical students out of USU go to DO programs.
There is certainly demand for it. Michigan has like 6 universities with medical schools, no reason Utah can't have 2.

I wonder if there is any appetite at USU for it? I know that the state legislature would need to approve it, but it seems like it could get support there if USU wanted to do it.
I’ve soapboxed on this several times on this site, so I’ll try to keep this short. USU 100% should have a medical school. The reason there are two new private DO schools in Utah is because there is high demand for a couple of reasons. I am in residency in Michigan and there are a bunch of schools. There are ~120 seats annually at utah, and ~1000 seats annually in Michigan. There are also residency programs at pretty much any hospital. Logan regional has 150 beds and not a sniff of a residency program. Similar sized hospitals here in Michigan have residencies in IM, emergency med, gen surg, and even more depending on the hospital. My hospital is overseen under the umbrella of MSU for residency programs. U of M has its own thing like utah, but MSU and Wayne State just use a bunch of the local private hospitals (like IHC, Mountain Star, etc.).

University of Utah has honestly done a terrible job of providing medical education to the state. Many state schools will accept almost no out of state students. The U accepts 1/3 of their class out of state. So only 80 seats for instate students. The kicker is they count anyone who graduated from a Utah high school as instate regardless of where they did undergrad, and they count anyone who graduated from a utah college (byu included) as instate regardless of where they grew up. So for those of us who grew up in utah and went to college in Utah, we have no advantage, which is why so many Utah students end up at DO schools. When I tell prospective med students my MCAT score, they are shocked because that score for them gets them almost automatically into half the state schools.

What USU needs to do is start a med school from the model of Michigan State, WSU, or Virginia Tech. Start a school and collaborate with local hospitals for the clinical education. It benefits both parties. Unfortunately, there probably isn’t support from the state. I emailed Cockett about this idea last year. She was receptive and interested in the idea, but obviously she kind of knew she was on the way out. My only fear is that Weber or UVU jumps on something like this before USU. There will be another med school in Utah at some point, and I hope we are proactive enough to get it at USU and grow it as much as possible.
As a current DO student I 100% agree with you. I think there needs to be a better expansion of residency programs in the state before a new medical school can be built. I think there is especially a lot of untapped opportunity and need in the rural areas of our state for that. But I also think one of our biggest issues standing in our way of that is the University of Utah having exclusive rights to teach medicine and law at state schools. Until the legislature gets involved there I don’t see much changing.

Not to get sandboxy.
That is the problem, the legislature won't do anything about it, unless someone gives them a reason too, and trys to start a program. And no school will try to start a program until the legislature does something about it.

I do think it's something Cox is probably receptive too if someone pushed it. I think u of u fans in the legislature would fight it. But they can't have that much power, I think probably everyone else, including byu fans would be for it. Byu is not opening a medical school, and I know plenty of byu people that hate that they have to go to the u if they want to stay in the state.

tovli · Post by **tovli** » December 10th, 2023, 1:18 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 1:13 pm

tovli wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 1:06 pm

flying_scotsman2.0 wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 12:06 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 8:05 am

tovli wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 9:58 pm

SLB wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 2:22 pm
I am for Utah State having a medical school and a law school which the continuous growth in the area which would end up helping the sports side of things.
Utah has the 5th highest average MCAT score in the nation but the lowest medical school matriculation rate of any state in the union by a long shot.

I’ve always thought it would be interesting to follow an Oklahoma/Michigan approach and have an MD school at the flagship university and a DO school at the land grant university. 2/3 of medical students out of USU go to DO programs.
There is certainly demand for it. Michigan has like 6 universities with medical schools, no reason Utah can't have 2.

I wonder if there is any appetite at USU for it? I know that the state legislature would need to approve it, but it seems like it could get support there if USU wanted to do it.
I’ve soapboxed on this several times on this site, so I’ll try to keep this short. USU 100% should have a medical school. The reason there are two new private DO schools in Utah is because there is high demand for a couple of reasons. I am in residency in Michigan and there are a bunch of schools. There are ~120 seats annually at utah, and ~1000 seats annually in Michigan. There are also residency programs at pretty much any hospital. Logan regional has 150 beds and not a sniff of a residency program. Similar sized hospitals here in Michigan have residencies in IM, emergency med, gen surg, and even more depending on the hospital. My hospital is overseen under the umbrella of MSU for residency programs. U of M has its own thing like utah, but MSU and Wayne State just use a bunch of the local private hospitals (like IHC, Mountain Star, etc.).

University of Utah has honestly done a terrible job of providing medical education to the state. Many state schools will accept almost no out of state students. The U accepts 1/3 of their class out of state. So only 80 seats for instate students. The kicker is they count anyone who graduated from a Utah high school as instate regardless of where they did undergrad, and they count anyone who graduated from a utah college (byu included) as instate regardless of where they grew up. So for those of us who grew up in utah and went to college in Utah, we have no advantage, which is why so many Utah students end up at DO schools. When I tell prospective med students my MCAT score, they are shocked because that score for them gets them almost automatically into half the state schools.

What USU needs to do is start a med school from the model of Michigan State, WSU, or Virginia Tech. Start a school and collaborate with local hospitals for the clinical education. It benefits both parties. Unfortunately, there probably isn’t support from the state. I emailed Cockett about this idea last year. She was receptive and interested in the idea, but obviously she kind of knew she was on the way out. My only fear is that Weber or UVU jumps on something like this before USU. There will be another med school in Utah at some point, and I hope we are proactive enough to get it at USU and grow it as much as possible.
As a current DO student I 100% agree with you. I think there needs to be a better expansion of residency programs in the state before a new medical school can be built. I think there is especially a lot of untapped opportunity and need in the rural areas of our state for that. But I also think one of our biggest issues standing in our way of that is the University of Utah having exclusive rights to teach medicine and law at state schools. Until the legislature gets involved there I don’t see much changing.
Not to get sandboxy.
That is the problem, the legislature won't do anything about it, unless someone gives them a reason too, and trys to start a program. And no school will try to start a program until the legislature does something about it.

I do think it's something Cox is probably receptive too if someone pushed it. I think u of u fans in the legislature would fight it. But they can't have that much power, I think probably everyone else, including byu fans would be for it. Byu is not opening a medical school, and I know plenty of byu people that hate that they have to go to the u if they want to stay in the state.

Who’s the most politically influential person on this board and how do we get them to get the ball rolling on this? It would seriously be a dream of mine to come back to Utah to practice medicine and be able to help teach or be a preceptor for USU School of Medicine.

LarryTheAggie · Post by **LarryTheAggie** » December 10th, 2023, 1:37 pm

tovli wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 1:18 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 1:13 pm

tovli wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 1:06 pm

flying_scotsman2.0 wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 12:06 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 8:05 am

tovli wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 9:58 pm

SLB wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 2:22 pm
I am for Utah State having a medical school and a law school which the continuous growth in the area which would end up helping the sports side of things.
Utah has the 5th highest average MCAT score in the nation but the lowest medical school matriculation rate of any state in the union by a long shot.

I’ve always thought it would be interesting to follow an Oklahoma/Michigan approach and have an MD school at the flagship university and a DO school at the land grant university. 2/3 of medical students out of USU go to DO programs.
There is certainly demand for it. Michigan has like 6 universities with medical schools, no reason Utah can't have 2.

I wonder if there is any appetite at USU for it? I know that the state legislature would need to approve it, but it seems like it could get support there if USU wanted to do it.
I’ve soapboxed on this several times on this site, so I’ll try to keep this short. USU 100% should have a medical school. The reason there are two new private DO schools in Utah is because there is high demand for a couple of reasons. I am in residency in Michigan and there are a bunch of schools. There are ~120 seats annually at utah, and ~1000 seats annually in Michigan. There are also residency programs at pretty much any hospital. Logan regional has 150 beds and not a sniff of a residency program. Similar sized hospitals here in Michigan have residencies in IM, emergency med, gen surg, and even more depending on the hospital. My hospital is overseen under the umbrella of MSU for residency programs. U of M has its own thing like utah, but MSU and Wayne State just use a bunch of the local private hospitals (like IHC, Mountain Star, etc.).

University of Utah has honestly done a terrible job of providing medical education to the state. Many state schools will accept almost no out of state students. The U accepts 1/3 of their class out of state. So only 80 seats for instate students. The kicker is they count anyone who graduated from a Utah high school as instate regardless of where they did undergrad, and they count anyone who graduated from a utah college (byu included) as instate regardless of where they grew up. So for those of us who grew up in utah and went to college in Utah, we have no advantage, which is why so many Utah students end up at DO schools. When I tell prospective med students my MCAT score, they are shocked because that score for them gets them almost automatically into half the state schools.

What USU needs to do is start a med school from the model of Michigan State, WSU, or Virginia Tech. Start a school and collaborate with local hospitals for the clinical education. It benefits both parties. Unfortunately, there probably isn’t support from the state. I emailed Cockett about this idea last year. She was receptive and interested in the idea, but obviously she kind of knew she was on the way out. My only fear is that Weber or UVU jumps on something like this before USU. There will be another med school in Utah at some point, and I hope we are proactive enough to get it at USU and grow it as much as possible.
As a current DO student I 100% agree with you. I think there needs to be a better expansion of residency programs in the state before a new medical school can be built. I think there is especially a lot of untapped opportunity and need in the rural areas of our state for that. But I also think one of our biggest issues standing in our way of that is the University of Utah having exclusive rights to teach medicine and law at state schools. Until the legislature gets involved there I don’t see much changing.
Not to get sandboxy.
That is the problem, the legislature won't do anything about it, unless someone gives them a reason too, and trys to start a program. And no school will try to start a program until the legislature does something about it.

I do think it's something Cox is probably receptive too if someone pushed it. I think u of u fans in the legislature would fight it. But they can't have that much power, I think probably everyone else, including byu fans would be for it. Byu is not opening a medical school, and I know plenty of byu people that hate that they have to go to the u if they want to stay in the state.
Who’s the most politically influential person on this board and how do we get them to get the ball rolling on this? It would seriously be a dream of mine to come back to Utah to practice medicine and be able to help teach or be a preceptor for USU School of Medicine.

The university has to want it. Otherwise we are just dreaming. Is there anyone on the board that is plugged into the university to know if it is even something they have explored?

Maybe @flying_scotsman2.0 has emailed Cantwell.

flying_scotsman2.0 · Post by **flying_scotsman2.0** » December 10th, 2023, 3:32 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 1:37 pm

tovli wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 1:18 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 1:13 pm

tovli wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 1:06 pm

flying_scotsman2.0 wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 12:06 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 8:05 am

tovli wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 9:58 pm

SLB wrote: ↑
December 9th, 2023, 2:22 pm
I am for Utah State having a medical school and a law school which the continuous growth in the area which would end up helping the sports side of things.
Utah has the 5th highest average MCAT score in the nation but the lowest medical school matriculation rate of any state in the union by a long shot.

I’ve always thought it would be interesting to follow an Oklahoma/Michigan approach and have an MD school at the flagship university and a DO school at the land grant university. 2/3 of medical students out of USU go to DO programs.
There is certainly demand for it. Michigan has like 6 universities with medical schools, no reason Utah can't have 2.

I wonder if there is any appetite at USU for it? I know that the state legislature would need to approve it, but it seems like it could get support there if USU wanted to do it.
I’ve soapboxed on this several times on this site, so I’ll try to keep this short. USU 100% should have a medical school. The reason there are two new private DO schools in Utah is because there is high demand for a couple of reasons. I am in residency in Michigan and there are a bunch of schools. There are ~120 seats annually at utah, and ~1000 seats annually in Michigan. There are also residency programs at pretty much any hospital. Logan regional has 150 beds and not a sniff of a residency program. Similar sized hospitals here in Michigan have residencies in IM, emergency med, gen surg, and even more depending on the hospital. My hospital is overseen under the umbrella of MSU for residency programs. U of M has its own thing like utah, but MSU and Wayne State just use a bunch of the local private hospitals (like IHC, Mountain Star, etc.).

University of Utah has honestly done a terrible job of providing medical education to the state. Many state schools will accept almost no out of state students. The U accepts 1/3 of their class out of state. So only 80 seats for instate students. The kicker is they count anyone who graduated from a Utah high school as instate regardless of where they did undergrad, and they count anyone who graduated from a utah college (byu included) as instate regardless of where they grew up. So for those of us who grew up in utah and went to college in Utah, we have no advantage, which is why so many Utah students end up at DO schools. When I tell prospective med students my MCAT score, they are shocked because that score for them gets them almost automatically into half the state schools.

What USU needs to do is start a med school from the model of Michigan State, WSU, or Virginia Tech. Start a school and collaborate with local hospitals for the clinical education. It benefits both parties. Unfortunately, there probably isn’t support from the state. I emailed Cockett about this idea last year. She was receptive and interested in the idea, but obviously she kind of knew she was on the way out. My only fear is that Weber or UVU jumps on something like this before USU. There will be another med school in Utah at some point, and I hope we are proactive enough to get it at USU and grow it as much as possible.
As a current DO student I 100% agree with you. I think there needs to be a better expansion of residency programs in the state before a new medical school can be built. I think there is especially a lot of untapped opportunity and need in the rural areas of our state for that. But I also think one of our biggest issues standing in our way of that is the University of Utah having exclusive rights to teach medicine and law at state schools. Until the legislature gets involved there I don’t see much changing.
Not to get sandboxy.
That is the problem, the legislature won't do anything about it, unless someone gives them a reason too, and trys to start a program. And no school will try to start a program until the legislature does something about it.

I do think it's something Cox is probably receptive too if someone pushed it. I think u of u fans in the legislature would fight it. But they can't have that much power, I think probably everyone else, including byu fans would be for it. Byu is not opening a medical school, and I know plenty of byu people that hate that they have to go to the u if they want to stay in the state.
Who’s the most politically influential person on this board and how do we get them to get the ball rolling on this? It would seriously be a dream of mine to come back to Utah to practice medicine and be able to help teach or be a preceptor for USU School of Medicine.
The university has to want it. Otherwise we are just dreaming. Is there anyone on the board that is plugged into the university to know if it is even something they have explored?

Maybe @flying_scotsman2.0 has emailed Cantwell.

I have not emailed Cantwell yet. I figured she should get settled or I might not get a response. I also wrote a letter to the editor about this issue and sent it to SL Tribune, Des News, and KSL. Nobody ever got back to me. I will maybe go after this again in the next month or two and write to the office of the governor again as well. It needs to happen.

bwcrc · Post by **bwcrc** » December 10th, 2023, 4:07 pm

I tend to agree that Utah needs another medical school and USU is the best place to put it. The first two years in primarily a classroom setting wouldn't be a problem. It worked out okay for the vet school to get that up and going. The challenge would be rotations. Cache Valley isn't nearly large enough to support it and alternative sites would be required. I doubt the Salt Lake valley would be overly receptive to it (utah's influence would be heavy there) but the Ogden, Provo, and St. George areas combined could be enough to get the students through their rotations. It would also probably be possible to push students into Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana.

The first hurdle is to get enough influential state legislators to back the idea and overcome utah's influence. The next challenge, which might be more difficult, is coming up with several hundred million to launch the program while accepting it would be a money pit for the first several years.

As for a law school, Utah doesn't need another law school. Most states in the same population range have two or three law schools. And most that have three have had three for several decades. The two existing schools are enough to serve Utah's needs. In addition to the two schools, I can count on one hand the number of law students I have known since I was a 1L that were either from Utah or did undergrad there that didn't end up returning to Utah after graduating from law school.

LarryTheAggie · Post by **LarryTheAggie** » December 10th, 2023, 4:24 pm

bwcrc wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 4:07 pm
I tend to agree that Utah needs another medical school and USU is the best place to put it. The first two years in primarily a classroom setting wouldn't be a problem. It worked out okay for the vet school to get that up and going. The challenge would be rotations. Cache Valley isn't nearly large enough to support it and alternative sites would be required. I doubt the Salt Lake valley would be overly receptive to it (utah's influence would be heavy there) but the Ogden, Provo, and St. George areas combined could be enough to get the students through their rotations. It would also probably be possible to push students into Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana.

The first hurdle is to get enough influential state legislators to back the idea and overcome utah's influence. The next challenge, which might be more difficult, is coming up with several hundred million to launch the program while accepting it would be a money pit for the first several years.

As for a law school, Utah doesn't need another law school. Most states in the same population range have two or three law schools. And most that have three have had three for several decades. The two existing schools are enough to serve Utah's needs. In addition to the two schools, I can count on one hand the number of law students I have known since I was a 1L that were either from Utah or did undergrad there that didn't end up returning to Utah after graduating from law school.

Yeah, we don't need a law school.

I am not in the medical field so I dont really know what I am talking about. But It seems like there are plenty of examples of how to do it without doing rotations on campus. The school I currently tea has at has one of the largest medical schools in the country and they do not have a university hospital. The people doing rotations at the hospital my daughter is at come from probably 3 or 4 school. We could also do something like the WAMI program at UW and send them to other states like you said. I also wonder if they could do some sort of partnership with IHC for rotations.

I also agree that money is probably the biggest problem. Nobody here has a couple hundred million kicking around do you?

USU78 · Post by **USU78** » December 10th, 2023, 6:10 pm

bwcrc wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 4:07 pm
The two existing schools are enough to serve Utah's needs. In addition to the two schools, I can count on one hand the number of law students I have known since I was a 1L that were either from Utah or did undergrad there that didn't end up returning to Utah after graduating from law school.

The bougars lied when they sold the legislature on permitting them a law school by claiming they'd be exporting their grads out of state.

Never happened.

tovli · Post by **tovli** » December 10th, 2023, 6:41 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 4:24 pm

bwcrc wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 4:07 pm
I tend to agree that Utah needs another medical school and USU is the best place to put it. The first two years in primarily a classroom setting wouldn't be a problem. It worked out okay for the vet school to get that up and going. The challenge would be rotations. Cache Valley isn't nearly large enough to support it and alternative sites would be required. I doubt the Salt Lake valley would be overly receptive to it (utah's influence would be heavy there) but the Ogden, Provo, and St. George areas combined could be enough to get the students through their rotations. It would also probably be possible to push students into Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana.

The first hurdle is to get enough influential state legislators to back the idea and overcome utah's influence. The next challenge, which might be more difficult, is coming up with several hundred million to launch the program while accepting it would be a money pit for the first several years.

As for a law school, Utah doesn't need another law school. Most states in the same population range have two or three law schools. And most that have three have had three for several decades. The two existing schools are enough to serve Utah's needs. In addition to the two schools, I can count on one hand the number of law students I have known since I was a 1L that were either from Utah or did undergrad there that didn't end up returning to Utah after graduating from law school.
Yeah, we don't need a law school.

I am not in the medical field so I dont really know what I am talking about. But It seems like there are plenty of examples of how to do it without doing rotations on campus. The school I currently tea has at has one of the largest medical schools in the country and they do not have a university hospital. The people doing rotations at the hospital my daughter is at come from probably 3 or 4 school. We could also do something like the WAMI program at UW and send them to other states like you said. I also wonder if they could do some sort of partnership with IHC for rotations.

I also agree that money is probably the biggest problem. Nobody here has a couple hundred million kicking around do you?

I’m not a financial guy so who knows if this is actually a feasible option. But I’ve considered the idea that the state could buy out one of the for profits, Noorda or RVU (preferably RVU in St George because no one likes Provo), and then rebrand it as USU College of Medicine. It would be like the University of Utah’s PA program in St George. Then you could create residency programs and rotation sites near the USU statewide campuses. You would already have half of the existing infrastructure with the school (half is in Colorado) and then the connections to support the 3rd and 4th year students.

LarryTheAggie · Post by **LarryTheAggie** » December 10th, 2023, 6:54 pm

tovli wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 6:41 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 4:24 pm

bwcrc wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 4:07 pm
I tend to agree that Utah needs another medical school and USU is the best place to put it. The first two years in primarily a classroom setting wouldn't be a problem. It worked out okay for the vet school to get that up and going. The challenge would be rotations. Cache Valley isn't nearly large enough to support it and alternative sites would be required. I doubt the Salt Lake valley would be overly receptive to it (utah's influence would be heavy there) but the Ogden, Provo, and St. George areas combined could be enough to get the students through their rotations. It would also probably be possible to push students into Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana.

The first hurdle is to get enough influential state legislators to back the idea and overcome utah's influence. The next challenge, which might be more difficult, is coming up with several hundred million to launch the program while accepting it would be a money pit for the first several years.

As for a law school, Utah doesn't need another law school. Most states in the same population range have two or three law schools. And most that have three have had three for several decades. The two existing schools are enough to serve Utah's needs. In addition to the two schools, I can count on one hand the number of law students I have known since I was a 1L that were either from Utah or did undergrad there that didn't end up returning to Utah after graduating from law school.
Yeah, we don't need a law school.

I am not in the medical field so I dont really know what I am talking about. But It seems like there are plenty of examples of how to do it without doing rotations on campus. The school I currently tea has at has one of the largest medical schools in the country and they do not have a university hospital. The people doing rotations at the hospital my daughter is at come from probably 3 or 4 school. We could also do something like the WAMI program at UW and send them to other states like you said. I also wonder if they could do some sort of partnership with IHC for rotations.

I also agree that money is probably the biggest problem. Nobody here has a couple hundred million kicking around do you?
I’m not a financial guy so who knows if this is actually a feasible option. But I’ve considered the idea that the state could buy out one of the for profits, Noorda or RVU (preferably RVU in St George because no one likes Provo), and then rebrand it as USU College of Medicine. It would be like the University of Utah’s PA program in St George. Then you could create residency programs and rotation sites near the USU statewide campuses. You would already have half of the existing infrastructure with the school (half is in Colorado) and then the connections to support the 3rd and 4th year students.

Without looking at actual numbers my guys is it would make much more sense to get a partnership with a hospital system. That would be significantly cheaper upfront and the the university doesn't have to get into the business of operating a hospital. While the hospital gets fairly cheap labor from the university.

USU78 · Post by **USU78** » December 10th, 2023, 7:07 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 6:54 pm

tovli wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 6:41 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 4:24 pm

bwcrc wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 4:07 pm
I tend to agree that Utah needs another medical school and USU is the best place to put it. The first two years in primarily a classroom setting wouldn't be a problem. It worked out okay for the vet school to get that up and going. The challenge would be rotations. Cache Valley isn't nearly large enough to support it and alternative sites would be required. I doubt the Salt Lake valley would be overly receptive to it (utah's influence would be heavy there) but the Ogden, Provo, and St. George areas combined could be enough to get the students through their rotations. It would also probably be possible to push students into Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana.

The first hurdle is to get enough influential state legislators to back the idea and overcome utah's influence. The next challenge, which might be more difficult, is coming up with several hundred million to launch the program while accepting it would be a money pit for the first several years.

As for a law school, Utah doesn't need another law school. Most states in the same population range have two or three law schools. And most that have three have had three for several decades. The two existing schools are enough to serve Utah's needs. In addition to the two schools, I can count on one hand the number of law students I have known since I was a 1L that were either from Utah or did undergrad there that didn't end up returning to Utah after graduating from law school.
Yeah, we don't need a law school.

I am not in the medical field so I dont really know what I am talking about. But It seems like there are plenty of examples of how to do it without doing rotations on campus. The school I currently tea has at has one of the largest medical schools in the country and they do not have a university hospital. The people doing rotations at the hospital my daughter is at come from probably 3 or 4 school. We could also do something like the WAMI program at UW and send them to other states like you said. I also wonder if they could do some sort of partnership with IHC for rotations.

I also agree that money is probably the biggest problem. Nobody here has a couple hundred million kicking around do you?
I’m not a financial guy so who knows if this is actually a feasible option. But I’ve considered the idea that the state could buy out one of the for profits, Noorda or RVU (preferably RVU in St George because no one likes Provo), and then rebrand it as USU College of Medicine. It would be like the University of Utah’s PA program in St George. Then you could create residency programs and rotation sites near the USU statewide campuses. You would already have half of the existing infrastructure with the school (half is in Colorado) and then the connections to support the 3rd and 4th year students.
Without looking at actual numbers my guys is it would make much more sense to get a partnership with a hospital system. That would be significantly cheaper upfront and the the university doesn't have to get into the business of operating a hospital. While the hospital gets fairly cheap labor from the university.

So you're thinking Mountainstar or IHC? Something like that?

LarryTheAggie · Post by **LarryTheAggie** » December 10th, 2023, 7:13 pm

USU78 wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 7:07 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 6:54 pm

tovli wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 6:41 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 4:24 pm

bwcrc wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 4:07 pm
I tend to agree that Utah needs another medical school and USU is the best place to put it. The first two years in primarily a classroom setting wouldn't be a problem. It worked out okay for the vet school to get that up and going. The challenge would be rotations. Cache Valley isn't nearly large enough to support it and alternative sites would be required. I doubt the Salt Lake valley would be overly receptive to it (utah's influence would be heavy there) but the Ogden, Provo, and St. George areas combined could be enough to get the students through their rotations. It would also probably be possible to push students into Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana.

The first hurdle is to get enough influential state legislators to back the idea and overcome utah's influence. The next challenge, which might be more difficult, is coming up with several hundred million to launch the program while accepting it would be a money pit for the first several years.

As for a law school, Utah doesn't need another law school. Most states in the same population range have two or three law schools. And most that have three have had three for several decades. The two existing schools are enough to serve Utah's needs. In addition to the two schools, I can count on one hand the number of law students I have known since I was a 1L that were either from Utah or did undergrad there that didn't end up returning to Utah after graduating from law school.
Yeah, we don't need a law school.

I am not in the medical field so I dont really know what I am talking about. But It seems like there are plenty of examples of how to do it without doing rotations on campus. The school I currently tea has at has one of the largest medical schools in the country and they do not have a university hospital. The people doing rotations at the hospital my daughter is at come from probably 3 or 4 school. We could also do something like the WAMI program at UW and send them to other states like you said. I also wonder if they could do some sort of partnership with IHC for rotations.

I also agree that money is probably the biggest problem. Nobody here has a couple hundred million kicking around do you?
I’m not a financial guy so who knows if this is actually a feasible option. But I’ve considered the idea that the state could buy out one of the for profits, Noorda or RVU (preferably RVU in St George because no one likes Provo), and then rebrand it as USU College of Medicine. It would be like the University of Utah’s PA program in St George. Then you could create residency programs and rotation sites near the USU statewide campuses. You would already have half of the existing infrastructure with the school (half is in Colorado) and then the connections to support the 3rd and 4th year students.
Without looking at actual numbers my guys is it would make much more sense to get a partnership with a hospital system. That would be significantly cheaper upfront and the the university doesn't have to get into the business of operating a hospital. While the hospital gets fairly cheap labor from the university.
So you're thinking Mountainstar or IHC? Something like that?

Yeah if you could, that seems like it would get you the widest breadth of experience possibilities for the students. Again not at all my world, so I don't really know. But I do think that is what the university that I work at does with their med school.

IHC would make a bunch of sense since they are already almost on campus in Logan, and they are huge.

flying_scotsman2.0 · Post by **flying_scotsman2.0** » December 10th, 2023, 7:19 pm

It cost Virginia tech $70M to get their med school up and running. They partnered with a large local hospital for clinical stuff. It doesn’t cost the hospital hardly anything to let med students come wander around. Michigan State and Wayne State partner with hospitals around the state. Washington State does the same thing. IHC or Mountainstar are more than big enough to support another medical school. Honestly, they have the infrastructure to support probably 300 students/year or more if needed. Clinical rotations would have to be up and down the wasatch front, obviously. And there would not be as much push back, at least not from the physicians. Most doctors really enjoy teaching medical students. The U sends residents to SL regional hospital, and they tried to block RVU students from going to that hospital, as well as several other IHC and Mountainstar facilities, and they basically told them to stay in their lane. The U is a direct competitor to those institutions. They are setting up clinics all over and directly competing. I would venture to say the relationship between the U and the local hospitals isn’t always even amicable. I spoke to several clinicians who felt like the university physicians were condescending in their interactions.

tovli · Post by **tovli** » December 10th, 2023, 7:22 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 7:13 pm

USU78 wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 7:07 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 6:54 pm

tovli wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 6:41 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 4:24 pm

bwcrc wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 4:07 pm
I tend to agree that Utah needs another medical school and USU is the best place to put it. The first two years in primarily a classroom setting wouldn't be a problem. It worked out okay for the vet school to get that up and going. The challenge would be rotations. Cache Valley isn't nearly large enough to support it and alternative sites would be required. I doubt the Salt Lake valley would be overly receptive to it (utah's influence would be heavy there) but the Ogden, Provo, and St. George areas combined could be enough to get the students through their rotations. It would also probably be possible to push students into Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana.

The first hurdle is to get enough influential state legislators to back the idea and overcome utah's influence. The next challenge, which might be more difficult, is coming up with several hundred million to launch the program while accepting it would be a money pit for the first several years.

As for a law school, Utah doesn't need another law school. Most states in the same population range have two or three law schools. And most that have three have had three for several decades. The two existing schools are enough to serve Utah's needs. In addition to the two schools, I can count on one hand the number of law students I have known since I was a 1L that were either from Utah or did undergrad there that didn't end up returning to Utah after graduating from law school.
Yeah, we don't need a law school.

I am not in the medical field so I dont really know what I am talking about. But It seems like there are plenty of examples of how to do it without doing rotations on campus. The school I currently tea has at has one of the largest medical schools in the country and they do not have a university hospital. The people doing rotations at the hospital my daughter is at come from probably 3 or 4 school. We could also do something like the WAMI program at UW and send them to other states like you said. I also wonder if they could do some sort of partnership with IHC for rotations.

I also agree that money is probably the biggest problem. Nobody here has a couple hundred million kicking around do you?
I’m not a financial guy so who knows if this is actually a feasible option. But I’ve considered the idea that the state could buy out one of the for profits, Noorda or RVU (preferably RVU in St George because no one likes Provo), and then rebrand it as USU College of Medicine. It would be like the University of Utah’s PA program in St George. Then you could create residency programs and rotation sites near the USU statewide campuses. You would already have half of the existing infrastructure with the school (half is in Colorado) and then the connections to support the 3rd and 4th year students.
Without looking at actual numbers my guys is it would make much more sense to get a partnership with a hospital system. That would be significantly cheaper upfront and the the university doesn't have to get into the business of operating a hospital. While the hospital gets fairly cheap labor from the university.
So you're thinking Mountainstar or IHC? Something like that?
Yeah if you could, that seems like it would get you the widest breadth of experience possibilities for the students. Again not at all my world, so I don't really know. But I do think that is what the university that I work at does with their med school.

IHC would make a bunch of sense since they are already almost on campus in Logan, and they are huge.

I’m not sure how involved but I know every medical school in Utah is partnered with Intermountain in some way or another. I also know that Noorda’s board of trustees is full of Aggies and IHC higher ups. Rocky Vista’s board does have Stan Albrecht which I think is interesting.

LarryTheAggie · Post by **LarryTheAggie** » December 10th, 2023, 7:48 pm

flying_scotsman2.0 wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 7:19 pm
It cost Virginia tech $70M to get their med school up and running. They partnered with a large local hospital for clinical stuff. It doesn’t cost the hospital hardly anything to let med students come wander around. Michigan State and Wayne State partner with hospitals around the state. Washington State does the same thing. IHC or Mountainstar are more than big enough to support another medical school. Honestly, they have the infrastructure to support probably 300 students/year or more if needed. Clinical rotations would have to be up and down the wasatch front, obviously. And there would not be as much push back, at least not from the physicians. Most doctors really enjoy teaching medical students. The U sends residents to SL regional hospital, and they tried to block RVU students from going to that hospital, as well as several other IHC and Mountainstar facilities, and they basically told them to stay in their lane. The U is a direct competitor to those institutions. They are setting up clinics all over and directly competing. I would venture to say the relationship between the U and the local hospitals isn’t always even amicable. I spoke to several clinicians who felt like the university physicians were condescending in their interactions.

If they could do it for 70 million, that sounds much more feasible than I originally thought. If they could convince the legislature that it is needed and would provide a public good by doing it, they could probably get the state to fund a large chunk of that.

tovli · Post by **tovli** » December 10th, 2023, 7:56 pm

LarryTheAggie wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 7:48 pm

flying_scotsman2.0 wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 7:19 pm
It cost Virginia tech $70M to get their med school up and running. They partnered with a large local hospital for clinical stuff. It doesn’t cost the hospital hardly anything to let med students come wander around. Michigan State and Wayne State partner with hospitals around the state. Washington State does the same thing. IHC or Mountainstar are more than big enough to support another medical school. Honestly, they have the infrastructure to support probably 300 students/year or more if needed. Clinical rotations would have to be up and down the wasatch front, obviously. And there would not be as much push back, at least not from the physicians. Most doctors really enjoy teaching medical students. The U sends residents to SL regional hospital, and they tried to block RVU students from going to that hospital, as well as several other IHC and Mountainstar facilities, and they basically told them to stay in their lane. The U is a direct competitor to those institutions. They are setting up clinics all over and directly competing. I would venture to say the relationship between the U and the local hospitals isn’t always even amicable. I spoke to several clinicians who felt like the university physicians were condescending in their interactions.
If they could do it for 70 million, that sounds much more feasible than I originally thought. If they could convince the legislature that it is needed and would provide a public good by doing it, they could probably get the state to fund a large chunk of that.

@SpencerCox are you reading this our Aggie brother?

Bullnamed_gus · Post by **Bullnamed_gus** » December 10th, 2023, 10:20 pm

It does make a lot of sense for Utah State to
Get a Med Program. It seemed as if Cocket was posturing that way when They opened that huge new life sciences building for their “nursing” program. Seemed strange to me to open a. Huge building like that for a tiny nursing program.

I’m not plugged in either but the outright acquiring of one of the schools in St George could be an easy path. Selfishly I would rather have it in Logan though, and then partnering with IHC for clinical rotations all over the state. The U is ridiculous to get into.

I’m not trying to get sandboxy here, but there are a lot of state politicians that are “anti-UoU” right now because they see them as “woke”. So it might be a good time to strike while the iron is hot. If Cantwell got aggressive could probably be a good sales pitch. Arizona had a Med School.

flying_scotsman2.0 · Post by **flying_scotsman2.0** » December 11th, 2023, 10:25 am

Bullnamed_gus wrote: ↑
December 10th, 2023, 10:20 pm
It does make a lot of sense for Utah State to
Get a Med Program. It seemed as if Cocket was posturing that way when They opened that huge new life sciences building for their “nursing” program. Seemed strange to me to open a. Huge building like that for a tiny nursing program.

I’m not plugged in either but the outright acquiring of one of the schools in St George could be an easy path. Selfishly I would rather have it in Logan though, and then partnering with IHC for clinical rotations all over the state. The U is ridiculous to get into.

I’m not trying to get sandboxy here, but there are a lot of state politicians that are “anti-UoU” right now because they see them as “woke”. So it might be a good time to strike while the iron is hot. If Cantwell got aggressive could probably be a good sales pitch. Arizona had a Med School.

Arizona is possibly the only med school less state friendly than Utah. And ASU doesn’t have a med school, U of A has a campus in Phoenix and Tucson. We don’t want to follow that model. But Cantwell might understand the med school scene from her work at U of A, which may have been your main point.

NavyBlue · Post by **NavyBlue** » December 11th, 2023, 2:50 pm

Can someone please explain to me how a DO and an MD are different ? With Utah's population growth, a second medical school will become necessary. Also, keep in mind some our surrounding states don't have medical schools (Idaho, Montana, Wyoming). We could draw students from those states and have a WAMI like partnership with them.

Coloraggie · Post by **Coloraggie** » December 11th, 2023, 4:19 pm

My less than medical knowledge training. An MD is mostly strictly western medicine, pharma and surgeries. A DO uses some of these techniques but mixes in natural remedies. I think both have a place. As far as RVU, their Colorado campus is very close to my house and we used to get med students in our ward all the time until they opened the Cedar City campus. I'd be happy if RVU became an extension of USU and filtered a few more USU grads my way.

tovli · Post by **tovli** » December 11th, 2023, 5:14 pm

NavyBlue wrote: ↑
December 11th, 2023, 2:50 pm
Can someone please explain to me how a DO and an MD are different ? With Utah's population growth, a second medical school will become necessary. Also, keep in mind some our surrounding states don't have medical schools (Idaho, Montana, Wyoming). We could draw students from those states and have a WAMI like partnership with them.

So I’ll give you my obviously biased opinion as current DO student. The difference traditionally started with just a different understanding of the body. DO’s focused more on the body as an interconnected unit. In order to treat a disease you have to treat the underlying causes of the disease, that kinda stuff. The famous line our professors like to quote is “The goal of medicine is to find health, anyone can find disease.” DO’s also receive a little more training on musculoskeletal injuries (think PT training) that’s a core part of our curriculum.

That being said (cue Scotty G tweet) there are some things that even I as a DO student somewhat don’t buy into when it comes to DO training that is traditional to teach but has little scientific backing (think similar to chiropractic but a little kookier) that the old school DO’s in charge of the medical association won’t get rid of. The vast majority of practicing DO’s don’t even use that stuff.

Bottom line, there is very little that is different between DO’s and MD’s. Both can practice medicine, perform surgery and prescribe medication. DO’s can do any specialty an MD can do. The residency programs are now combined for both degrees so regardless of what degree you have you end up in the same pool anyway. We pass the same classes, take the same rotations, fail the same exams (only half kidding). Even the philosophies about medicine have met somewhere in the middle and there’s not really any difference (despite what the old school DO’s will tell you).

If you go back east the DO/MD split is 50/50. But past the Midwest it starts to change to 25/75. That’s part of why not many people know what a DO is. To be 100% fair I didn’t know either until I was a Junior at USU. I always thought I’d go to the University of Utah and I had a great application but like so many others, being an Utah resident is a serious disadvantage when it comes to medical school. I’m not sad about how any of it turned out, I love my classmates and we have great faculty at my program and I have found that I have really come to appreciate the holistic philosophy of health that DO’s have.

tl/dr: not much

tovli · Post by **tovli** » December 11th, 2023, 5:18 pm

NavyBlue wrote: ↑
December 11th, 2023, 2:50 pm
Can someone please explain to me how a DO and an MD are different ? With Utah's population growth, a second medical school will become necessary. Also, keep in mind some our surrounding states don't have medical schools (Idaho, Montana, Wyoming). We could draw students from those states and have a WAMI like partnership with them.

I agree with you on this but part of our problem is already the fact that Utah students are at a disadvantage when it comes to applying for medical school. I’d like to see this be a program focused on training and keeping Utah physicians, especially rural physicians. That’s another advantage of a DO school is they place a heavy emphasis on rural medicine.

Upcoming Events

Event Results