CK playing in the shape he was in was a medical staff failure. Same goes for Kyler Fackrell playing in the Tennessee game after his knee injury. Who knows what other nuggets of wisdom they've hidden in games. Not even sure why they have a medical staff at the games if they're not going to watch out for the players. There's a fine line between allowing the warrior mentality and taking a player out to watch out for their long term health.

Before I buy off on your post, please let us know what your qualifications are to make this claim? I am genuinely interested to hear what has led you to believe that the medical staff failed by allowing these two athletes to continue.

I have often wondered what the rules/regulations are regarding "injuries". Example. When Taysom got injured this year, he left and then choose to come back in and play through it and then later decided it was too much. So that raises the question, during a game can a sideline "doctor" (or someone else) say that a player cannot return to play? not including head injuries.
Another example... during the Tennessee game when chuckie got hurt he asked to be taken out of the game but was told to get back out there.

I truly believe that they all thought they were doing what was best for the team. It is true that we don't always make the best decisions. However, an MRI goes a long ways into making good decisions. "Failure", not likely...

Aggiefan160 wrote:Before I buy off on your post, please let us know what your qualifications are to make this claim? I am genuinely interested to hear what has led you to believe that the medical staff failed by allowing these two athletes to continue.

I'm not a Dr nor have any qualifications to make the claim but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express in the past: [youtube][/youtube].

I suspect that the coaching staff will defer to the medical staff. If the medical staff says they're good to go, the coaches will likely play them. I'd rather have the medical staff err on the side of caution to protect the player from themselves.When you see someone hobbling around the medical staff has got to make the hard decision and protect the player, especially in college.

If the medical staff won't protect the player, who will?

tbadge wrote:CK playing in the shape he was in was a medical staff failure. Same goes for Kyler Fackrell playing in the Tennessee game after his knee injury. Who knows what other nuggets of wisdom they've hidden in games. Not even sure why they have a medical staff at the games if they're not going to watch out for the players. There's a fine line between allowing the warrior mentality and taking a player out to watch out for their long term health.

No offense, but another post about a matter wholly behond the ken of the OP and about which he knows nothing. You don't have the foggiest idea whether it is failure or not. You merely assume, as a lay person, that it is such with no knowledge of the actual facts. Were you present when Chuckie's knee was evaluated at Utah and thereafter? Do you have any idea what the stress testing showed? Same for Fackrell? Any idea at all?

I didn't think so.

I heard that Kyler Fackrell went back in against Tennessee cause he passed tests that two doctors gave him in order to go back in. So Yes, a doctor CAN say that a player can't play anymore. This happened to Mitch Matthews when BYU played at Cal, and he was upset when being told he couldn't go in. And they will NEVER force a player to go back in if he doesn't think he feels good enough.

Some very reckless accusations here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I admit that I wasn't there and was sitting on my couch watching the game. However, I must have missed all the posts where everyone thought that CK should have been out on the field trying to play through his injury was a good idea. I must have missed all the posts where everyone also thought that MW should have continued playing him despite his gimpiness. I'll have to go back and reread all the posts from during the game and post game. Maybe this support for his playing was buried in there somewhere.

What's more reckless...watching a player get progressively worse and not doing anything about it or asking the medical staff to make a hard decision when faced with uncertainty?

When you read the posts mine were for taking him out to protect him from himself, really felt he should have been out early last week.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When someone is out on the field hobbling around, I don't think you need a doctors degree to sit someone. I don't think you need a doctors degree to see something isn't right. Am I missing something? I thought the same thing when Fackrell first got injured. I would always prefer to err on the side of caution in these cases. Fire away

We do seem to have more injured players than other teams.

Imakeitrain wrote:We do seem to have more injured players than other teams.

This is not true.

GeoAg wrote:

Imakeitrain wrote:We do seem to have more injured players than other teams.

This is not true.

I said seems. We were on our 4 string QB last year.LT got injured, Kyler missed almost all the season, and TMac did miss all the season due to medical reasons. Swindall missed much of the season due to medical reasons. Joe Hill was never quite right either, we never saw the breakout speed that he showed a few years prior.

Amazing that whenever the score isn't in our favor everyone is fair game to some. Come on, let's start looking forward and support those who put it all out just so we can gripe about their effort.

Imakeitrain wrote:

GeoAg wrote:

Imakeitrain wrote:We do seem to have more injured players than other teams.

This is not true.

I said seems. We were on our 4 string QB last year.LT got injured, Kyler missed almost all the season, and TMac did miss all the season due to medical reasons. Swindall missed much of the season due to medical reasons. Joe Hill was never quite right either, we never saw the breakout speed that he showed a few years prior.

This is more true than people realize. We have more significant joint/season ending injuries than other teams. Part of an S&C coaches job is to prevent injuries. Big time programs like LSU get athletes much more developed than ours. Those programs just have to work on preventing injury/mobility and do less arduous strength work. Our S&C coaches have to get guys faster, stronger, AND prevent injury. This is a more risky training method and has absolutely led to some preventable joint injuries: IE Achilles injuries and non-contact ACL tears. Look at all the joint related shoulder injuries: T-Mac as one prime example.

We seem to have players who are obviously injured and limping around and remain on the field, I think it is weird and disturbing.
It borders on the legal definition of gross negligence.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Madmartigan wrote:

Imakeitrain wrote:

GeoAg wrote:

Imakeitrain wrote:We do seem to have more injured players than other teams.

This is not true.

I said seems. We were on our 4 string QB last year.LT got injured, Kyler missed almost all the season, and TMac did miss all the season due to medical reasons. Swindall missed much of the season due to medical reasons. Joe Hill was never quite right either, we never saw the breakout speed that he showed a few years prior.

This is more true than people realize. We have more significant joint/season ending injuries than other teams. Part of an S&C coaches job is to prevent injuries. Big time programs like LSU get athletes much more developed than ours. Those programs just have to work on preventing injury/mobility and do less arduous strength work. Our S&C coaches have to get guys faster, stronger, AND prevent injury. This is a more risky training method and has absolutely led to some preventable joint injuries: IE Achilles injuries and non-contact ACL tears. Look at all the joint related shoulder injuries: T-Mac as one prime example.

Show me data. In 2012 we had very few such injuries if any.

You realize that Notre Dame has lost 5 starters for the season to injuries since August.

This entire thread is simply based on paying attention to our own injuries without realizing how many other teams have. There is nothing wrong with our medical staff. We have no more injuries than other teams over the course of multiple years. P5 teams do not have fewer injuries due to different training methods. We don't play people hurt all the time. This is an overreaction to what we saw on Saturday and that is all.

What about our workouts is so damaging? In the highlight vids i see full range of motion squats, proper hand spacing on presses and cleans, elbows up, cheat up butt out, unless of course they edit all the crappy form out. Photoshop maybe?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GeoAg wrote:

Madmartigan wrote:

Imakeitrain wrote:

GeoAg wrote:

Imakeitrain wrote:We do seem to have more injured players than other teams.

This is not true.

I said seems. We were on our 4 string QB last year.LT got injured, Kyler missed almost all the season, and TMac did miss all the season due to medical reasons. Swindall missed much of the season due to medical reasons. Joe Hill was never quite right either, we never saw the breakout speed that he showed a few years prior.

This is more true than people realize. We have more significant joint/season ending injuries than other teams. Part of an S&C coaches job is to prevent injuries. Big time programs like LSU get athletes much more developed than ours. Those programs just have to work on preventing injury/mobility and do less arduous strength work. Our S&C coaches have to get guys faster, stronger, AND prevent injury. This is a more risky training method and has absolutely led to some preventable joint injuries: IE Achilles injuries and non-contact ACL tears. Look at all the joint related shoulder injuries: T-Mac as one prime example.

Show me data. In 2012 we had very few such injuries if any.

You realize that Notre Dame has lost 5 starters for the season to injuries since August.

This entire thread is simply based on paying attention to our own injuries without realizing how many other teams have. There is nothing wrong with our medical staff. We have no more injuries than other teams over the course of multiple years. P5 teams do not have fewer injuries due to different training methods. We don't play people hurt all the time. This is an overreaction to what we saw on Saturday and that is all.

I agree with you there's nothing wrong with our medical staff.

In 2012 we had a completely different strength staff from the one we have now. I could certainly go back and enumerate the number of season ending non-contact joint injuries since 2013 but that's not going to do us any good. You know we've had an abnormally high amount. Everyone on the board knows we've had more significant joint injuries than most teams.
As for AK's question about form, range of motion, etc- that's part of the equation for sure. I'm happy to PM you to talk in more detail as I think going in-depth on the strength and conditioning methods would be a yawner for most. PM me if you want to chat.

Shannon Turley at Stanford does it the right way. 87% reduction in injury since he got there.
[youtube][/youtube]

The avg. injury rate in NCAA football is 8.1 injuries per 1000 athletes. Source https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/file ... ry_WEB.pdf
I wouldn't be surprised if FCS has a higher rate based upon the size, speed and strength of the athletes.

I'm not sure if we are higher or lower than that average. What I think is more significant is the amount of injuries compared to position. Last year we injured 3 QBs - may have been coincidence, but we seem to have a hard time keeping our QBs healthy the past few years (O line?). We also lost a number of LBs. What was significant about those two positions that caused multiple injuries?

I think that it is important to also review the apparent cause of the injury. For example, Darrel was tackled and broke his wrist. Harrison's was a knee when he was sacked, Fackrell was a knee that was really a freakish looking event, seemingly hyper-extended while taking on a block. LT was an achilles, as was Swindall. Those were both non-contact.

I heard an interesting theory that with today's advanced training methods, athletes are strengthening their muscles beyond joint capacity (ligaments, tendons, etc.) I have no idea if any of this has validity, but it is an interesting theory. I lift a lot, but don't know that any of that lifting actually strengthens a ligament or tendon; certainly strengthens the muscles around those.

GeoAg wrote:

Madmartigan wrote:

Imakeitrain wrote:

GeoAg wrote:

Imakeitrain wrote:We do seem to have more injured players than other teams.

This is not true.

I said seems. We were on our 4 string QB last year.LT got injured, Kyler missed almost all the season, and TMac did miss all the season due to medical reasons. Swindall missed much of the season due to medical reasons. Joe Hill was never quite right either, we never saw the breakout speed that he showed a few years prior.

This is more true than people realize. We have more significant joint/season ending injuries than other teams. Part of an S&C coaches job is to prevent injuries. Big time programs like LSU get athletes much more developed than ours. Those programs just have to work on preventing injury/mobility and do less arduous strength work. Our S&C coaches have to get guys faster, stronger, AND prevent injury. This is a more risky training method and has absolutely led to some preventable joint injuries: IE Achilles injuries and non-contact ACL tears. Look at all the joint related shoulder injuries: T-Mac as one prime example.

Show me data. In 2012 we had very few such injuries if any.

You realize that Notre Dame has lost 5 starters for the season to injuries since August.

This entire thread is simply based on paying attention to our own injuries without realizing how many other teams have. There is nothing wrong with our medical staff. We have no more injuries than other teams over the course of multiple years. P5 teams do not have fewer injuries due to different training methods. We don't play people hurt all the time. This is an overreaction to what we saw on Saturday and that is all.

Geo I value your opinion, but I have to disagree that there is not something off about the staff letting a player hobble around the field. Last Saturday was not the first time this has occurred. Last year in Tennessee, the utah game this year and then again in the UW game. Like it or not the inability to ambulate correctly (for a normal person) signifies injury. If some part of a player was not injured and/or there is no nervous system damage than they should have no problem running/walking normally. It is just a major red flag in my opinion.

Madmartigan wrote:

GeoAg wrote:

Madmartigan wrote:

Imakeitrain wrote:

GeoAg wrote:

Imakeitrain wrote:We do seem to have more injured players than other teams.

This is not true.

I said seems. We were on our 4 string QB last year.LT got injured, Kyler missed almost all the season, and TMac did miss all the season due to medical reasons. Swindall missed much of the season due to medical reasons. Joe Hill was never quite right either, we never saw the breakout speed that he showed a few years prior.

This is more true than people realize. We have more significant joint/season ending injuries than other teams. Part of an S&C coaches job is to prevent injuries. Big time programs like LSU get athletes much more developed than ours. Those programs just have to work on preventing injury/mobility and do less arduous strength work. Our S&C coaches have to get guys faster, stronger, AND prevent injury. This is a more risky training method and has absolutely led to some preventable joint injuries: IE Achilles injuries and non-contact ACL tears. Look at all the joint related shoulder injuries: T-Mac as one prime example.

Show me data. In 2012 we had very few such injuries if any.

You realize that Notre Dame has lost 5 starters for the season to injuries since August.

This entire thread is simply based on paying attention to our own injuries without realizing how many other teams have. There is nothing wrong with our medical staff. We have no more injuries than other teams over the course of multiple years. P5 teams do not have fewer injuries due to different training methods. We don't play people hurt all the time. This is an overreaction to what we saw on Saturday and that is all.

I agree with you there's nothing wrong with our medical staff.

In 2012 we had a completely different strength staff from the one we have now. I could certainly go back and enumerate the number of season ending non-contact joint injuries since 2013 but that's not going to do us any good. You know we've had an abnormally high amount. Everyone on the board knows we've had more significant joint injuries than most teams.
As for AK's question about form, range of motion, etc- that's part of the equation for sure. I'm happy to PM you to talk in more detail as I think going in-depth on the strength and conditioning methods would be a yawner for most. PM me if you want to chat.

Shannon Turley at Stanford does it the right way. 86% reduction in injury since he got there.
[youtube][/youtube]

Great video! That guy has a much better understanding of how to train elite athletes (yes college athletes are elite), and most "trainers"
I really like what he has to say around the 6 minute mark.

newhouse9 wrote:I think that it is important to also review the apparent cause of the injury. For example, Darrel was tackled and broke his wrist. Harrison's was a knee when he was sacked, Fackrell was a knee that was really a freakish looking event, seemingly hyper-extended while taking on a block. LT was an achilles, as was Swindall. Those were both non-contact.

I heard an interesting theory that with today's advanced training methods, athletes are strengthening their muscles beyond joint capacity (ligaments, tendons, etc.) I have no idea if any of this has validity, but it is an interesting theory. I lift a lot, but don't know that any of that lifting actually strengthens a ligament or tendon; certainly strengthens the muscles around those.

As a PT I have heard theories similar to this in the past and there is very little validity to it. There is some research that backs muscle imbalances as a potential problem (females are significantly more quadriceps dominant in their movement patterns when jumping/landing/twisting and do not use their hamstrings enough to produce a proper co-contraction to protect the knee joint, and they are more susceptible to ACL type injuries). Athletes who have weaker hip external rotation/abduction will drop into more of a valgus deviation which leads to the "unhappy triad" injury. But I just can't get behind athletes being too strong being a problem as most of these injuries are not due to their own force production exceeding the capacity of their joints to tolerate the load. More than anything, it's a motor control issue. That's my empirical evidence with a little bit of level IV evidence mixed in

Thanks for the information! I appreciate the education!

rfield3 wrote:

newhouse9 wrote:I think that it is important to also review the apparent cause of the injury. For example, Darrel was tackled and broke his wrist. Harrison's was a knee when he was sacked, Fackrell was a knee that was really a freakish looking event, seemingly hyper-extended while taking on a block. LT was an achilles, as was Swindall. Those were both non-contact.

I heard an interesting theory that with today's advanced training methods, athletes are strengthening their muscles beyond joint capacity (ligaments, tendons, etc.) I have no idea if any of this has validity, but it is an interesting theory. I lift a lot, but don't know that any of that lifting actually strengthens a ligament or tendon; certainly strengthens the muscles around those.

As a PT I have heard theories similar to this in the past and there is very little validity to it. There is some research that backs muscle imbalances as a potential problem (females are significantly more quadriceps dominant in their movement patterns when jumping/landing/twisting and do not use their hamstrings enough to produce a proper co-contraction to protect the knee joint, and they are more susceptible to ACL type injuries). Athletes who have weaker hip external rotation/abduction will drop into more of a valgus deviation which leads to the "unhappy triad" injury. But I just can't get behind athletes being too strong being a problem as most of these injuries are not due to their own force production exceeding the capacity of their joints to tolerate the load. More than anything, it's a motor control issue. That's my empirical evidence with a little bit of level IV evidence mixed in

Haha, love that level IV evidence. Thanks for the information.

GeoAg wrote:

Imakeitrain wrote:We do seem to have more injured players than other teams.

This is not true.

Are you sure about this? I probably agree with you, but I would love to see some data comparing injuries at FBS schools and see whether we are statistically different than the norm.

That data is probably not readily available, but if you are a grad student looking for a project, you're welcome...

rfield3 wrote:

newhouse9 wrote:I think that it is important to also review the apparent cause of the injury. For example, Darrel was tackled and broke his wrist. Harrison's was a knee when he was sacked, Fackrell was a knee that was really a freakish looking event, seemingly hyper-extended while taking on a block. LT was an achilles, as was Swindall. Those were both non-contact.

I heard an interesting theory that with today's advanced training methods, athletes are strengthening their muscles beyond joint capacity (ligaments, tendons, etc.) I have no idea if any of this has validity, but it is an interesting theory. I lift a lot, but don't know that any of that lifting actually strengthens a ligament or tendon; certainly strengthens the muscles around those.

As a PT I have heard theories similar to this in the past and there is very little validity to it. There is some research that backs muscle imbalances as a potential problem (females are significantly more quadriceps dominant in their movement patterns when jumping/landing/twisting and do not use their hamstrings enough to produce a proper co-contraction to protect the knee joint, and they are more susceptible to ACL type injuries). Athletes who have weaker hip external rotation/abduction will drop into more of a valgus deviation which leads to the "unhappy triad" injury. But I just can't get behind athletes being too strong being a problem as most of these injuries are not due to their own force production exceeding the capacity of their joints to tolerate the load. More than anything, it's a motor control issue. That's my empirical evidence with a little bit of level IV evidence mixed in

My uneducated thought about this was that it had more to do with increasing mass beyond joint capacity. Increasing mass and trying to maneuver with the same quickness and explosiveness would seem to put a lot more stress on the joints. Again, this is just a theory that I can't remember if I came up with or heard somewhere.

Something that many of you are overlooking is flexibility. An athlete's flexibility is more important to joints than anything else. I think the reason for most of the injuries is a lack of flexibility. Broken bones are different. If you are more flexible your joints will be able to handle more stress movements. So I don't think it is a S&C problem as much as a flexibility to go along with building muscle.

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

AggieDude wrote:

rfield3 wrote:

newhouse9 wrote:I think that it is important to also review the apparent cause of the injury. For example, Darrel was tackled and broke his wrist. Harrison's was a knee when he was sacked, Fackrell was a knee that was really a freakish looking event, seemingly hyper-extended while taking on a block. LT was an achilles, as was Swindall. Those were both non-contact.

I heard an interesting theory that with today's advanced training methods, athletes are strengthening their muscles beyond joint capacity (ligaments, tendons, etc.) I have no idea if any of this has validity, but it is an interesting theory. I lift a lot, but don't know that any of that lifting actually strengthens a ligament or tendon; certainly strengthens the muscles around those.

As a PT I have heard theories similar to this in the past and there is very little validity to it. There is some research that backs muscle imbalances as a potential problem (females are significantly more quadriceps dominant in their movement patterns when jumping/landing/twisting and do not use their hamstrings enough to produce a proper co-contraction to protect the knee joint, and they are more susceptible to ACL type injuries). Athletes who have weaker hip external rotation/abduction will drop into more of a valgus deviation which leads to the "unhappy triad" injury. But I just can't get behind athletes being too strong being a problem as most of these injuries are not due to their own force production exceeding the capacity of their joints to tolerate the load. More than anything, it's a motor control issue. That's my empirical evidence with a little bit of level IV evidence mixed in

My uneducated thought about this was that it had more to do with increasing mass beyond joint capacity. Increasing mass and trying to maneuver with the same quickness and explosiveness would seem to put a lot more stress on the joints. Again, this is just a theory that I can't remember if I came up with or heard somewhere.

Well that can definitely be the case for our increasingly obese population as there is good mass and bad mass to put on. Increased muscle mass isn't necessarily a bad thing as strong muscles will actually offer support to joints to prevent the ligaments from being stressed and needing to offer the stability. If there are imbalances, however, then yes there can be an increased load/sheer at a joint. But I must say, I see literally 7-10x more very small female athletes with torn ligaments and other joint injuries than I do muscle-bound boys/men. Yes there are other hormonal and genetic factors that contribute to this...but I just don't see increased muscle mass as being a problem.

rfield3 wrote:

AggieDude wrote:

rfield3 wrote:

newhouse9 wrote:I think that it is important to also review the apparent cause of the injury. For example, Darrel was tackled and broke his wrist. Harrison's was a knee when he was sacked, Fackrell was a knee that was really a freakish looking event, seemingly hyper-extended while taking on a block. LT was an achilles, as was Swindall. Those were both non-contact.

I heard an interesting theory that with today's advanced training methods, athletes are strengthening their muscles beyond joint capacity (ligaments, tendons, etc.) I have no idea if any of this has validity, but it is an interesting theory. I lift a lot, but don't know that any of that lifting actually strengthens a ligament or tendon; certainly strengthens the muscles around those.

As a PT I have heard theories similar to this in the past and there is very little validity to it. There is some research that backs muscle imbalances as a potential problem (females are significantly more quadriceps dominant in their movement patterns when jumping/landing/twisting and do not use their hamstrings enough to produce a proper co-contraction to protect the knee joint, and they are more susceptible to ACL type injuries). Athletes who have weaker hip external rotation/abduction will drop into more of a valgus deviation which leads to the "unhappy triad" injury. But I just can't get behind athletes being too strong being a problem as most of these injuries are not due to their own force production exceeding the capacity of their joints to tolerate the load. More than anything, it's a motor control issue. That's my empirical evidence with a little bit of level IV evidence mixed in

My uneducated thought about this was that it had more to do with increasing mass beyond joint capacity. Increasing mass and trying to maneuver with the same quickness and explosiveness would seem to put a lot more stress on the joints. Again, this is just a theory that I can't remember if I came up with or heard somewhere.

Well that can definitely be the case for our increasingly obese population as there is good mass and bad mass to put on. Increased muscle mass isn't necessarily a bad thing as strong muscles will actually offer support to joints to prevent the ligaments from being stressed and needing to offer the stability. If there are imbalances, however, then yes there can be an increased load/sheer at a joint. But I must say, I see literally 7-10x more very small female athletes with torn ligaments and other joint injuries than I do muscle-bound boys/men. Yes there are other hormonal and genetic factors that contribute to this...but I just don't see increased muscle mass as being a problem.

Interesting. Thanks.

Bybs25 wrote:Something that many of you are overlooking is flexibility. An athlete's flexibility is more important to joints than anything else. I think the reason for most of the injuries is a lack of flexibility. Broken bones are different. If you are more flexible your joints will be able to handle more stress movements. So I don't think it is a S&C problem as much as a flexibility to go along with building muscle.

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

A lot of research has been done on this topic and they've come to very little conclusions regarding flexibility and its effect on injury. They have in fact said on many articles that this is overstated. They have found that the extremes of flexibility (too stiff and way too loose) are at higher risk for injury. Hypermobility (being too loose) is a higher risk factor for joint/ligament related injuries. Being too tight is a higher risk factor for contractile tissue injuries (muscle strains and tendinopathies). After watching our athletes move around on the field and doing their warm-ups and whatnot, I don't think this is an issue that contributes to these major injuries that we are talking about. Granted I don't have any access to their training regimens and I'm not testing their ranges of motion and dynamic flexibility, but I would HIGHLY doubt the training staff is ignoring or neglecting the athlete's dynamic or static flexibility.

Here is a link to a big systematic review that was done on this very topic, granted it was performed 10 years ago, but decade old research isn't always worthless and systematic reviews are pretty high up the pyramid of research. The discussion section is a good summary on the topic.

http://www.gytk.sote.hu/gyki/Oktatok/Ho ... rticle.pdf