3 in the key warning

aggie_in_NC · Post by **aggie_in_NC** » January 22nd, 2023, 12:09 pm

Mr. Sneelock wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 10:22 am
How often is 3 seconds called? And do you really expect that call in the final minute of a tied game? Where the fact that he was in the key was providing no real advantage in that moment?

Warn the guy and if he gets out no problem.

I think the ref did the right thing.

Sure didn’t stop them from calling the flop- similarly tight game and the alleged flop didn’t provide an advantage so…

Pacobag · Post by **Pacobag** » January 22nd, 2023, 12:28 pm

Refs make lots of mistakes, their job is hard. They are people and can get upset and frustrated. They are paid to call a fair game. Yet players are paid (scholarship or otherwise) to win and on average, they fail half of the time. Perhaps every fan base has fans that believe the refs are against their team. If you want the refs to be fair or even slightly biased to help your team, then yelling at them and criticizing them is fruitless at best and more likely detrimental. If people want to rant about specific bad calls, I get it. When people have conspiracy theories that the league and/or many refs are intentionally trying to make USU lose, I’m not buying it. Anecdotal evidence of a ref’s comments in the heat of the moment primarily tell me refs are human and will sometimes do the wrong thing like the rest of us.

Madmartigan · Post by **Madmartigan** » January 22nd, 2023, 12:35 pm

Pacobag wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 12:28 pm
Refs make lots of mistakes, their job is hard. They are people and can get upset and frustrated. They are paid to call a fair game. Yet players are paid (scholarship or otherwise) to win and on average, they fail half of the time. Perhaps every fan base has fans that believe the refs are against their team. If you want the refs to be fair or even slightly biased to help your team, then yelling at them and criticizing them is fruitless at best and more likely detrimental. If people want to rant about specific bad calls, I get it. When people have conspiracy theories that the league and/or many refs are intentionally trying to make USU lose, I’m not buying it. Anecdotal evidence of a ref’s comments in the heat of the moment primarily tell me refs are human and will sometimes do the wrong thing like the rest of us.

College refs are also really bad.

Pacobag · Post by **Pacobag** » January 22nd, 2023, 12:39 pm

Madmartigan wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 12:35 pm
College refs are also really bad.

Compared to what?

They are infinitely better than the refs I recently watched in a Freshman girls basketball game. The word horrendous comes to mind and the team I was hoping would win, won big. I felt bad for both teams at how the game was called.

Bank Shot · Post by **Bank Shot** » January 22nd, 2023, 12:40 pm

Madmartigan wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 12:35 pm

Pacobag wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 12:28 pm
Refs make lots of mistakes, their job is hard. They are people and can get upset and frustrated. They are paid to call a fair game. Yet players are paid (scholarship or otherwise) to win and on average, they fail half of the time. Perhaps every fan base has fans that believe the refs are against their team. If you want the refs to be fair or even slightly biased to help your team, then yelling at them and criticizing them is fruitless at best and more likely detrimental. If people want to rant about specific bad calls, I get it. When people have conspiracy theories that the league and/or many refs are intentionally trying to make USU lose, I’m not buying it. Anecdotal evidence of a ref’s comments in the heat of the moment primarily tell me refs are human and will sometimes do the wrong thing like the rest of us.
College refs are also really bad.

Refs in the pro leagues botch a lot of calls also. As athletes get bigger, stronger, and more athletic, their jobs will just get harder. And it's only natural when a call goes against us we make a fuss, but when, for example, everytime Rylan gets beat and grabs an arm, jersey, or whatever he can get his hands on, we say nothing. Just part of fandom.

FloridaAggie13 · Post by **FloridaAggie13** » January 22nd, 2023, 12:42 pm

What if the ball handler, as he innocuously dribbles down the shot clock near half court, mistakenly steps out of bounds or commits a back court violation? Do we let it slide just because he wasn't yet in the act of attacking the basket, either trying to score or create an opening to make a pass?

The guy was in the lane illegally, blow the whistle.

Bank Shot · Post by **Bank Shot** » January 22nd, 2023, 12:46 pm

FloridaAggie13 wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 12:42 pm
What if the ball handler, as he innocuously dribbles down the shot clock near half court, mistakenly steps out of bounds or commits a back court violation? Do we let it slide just because he wasn't yet in the act of attacking the basket, either trying to score or create an opening to make a pass?

The guy was in the lane illegally, blow the whistle.

Compared to the BIG10 and other P6 games, MWC games are the basketball version of flag football.

Pacobag · Post by **Pacobag** » January 22nd, 2023, 12:48 pm

FloridaAggie13 wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 12:42 pm
What if the ball handler, as he innocuously dribbles down the shot clock near half court, mistakenly steps out of bounds or commits a back court violation? Do we let it slide just because he wasn't yet in the act of attacking the basket, either trying to score or create an opening to make a pass?

The guy was in the lane illegally, blow the whistle.

Agree that SJSU got a nice break there. In a close game like that, every play and every call could have been the difference maker.

FeartheFro · Post by **FeartheFro** » January 22nd, 2023, 12:56 pm

For whatever reason the 3 second call is one where refs have made the decision (or someone made the decision) to warn players before making the call. I don’t know why. It is technically a violation. In the NBA the new style seems to be on some shooting fouls if the player makes the shot the foul is not called. If the player misses, the foul is called. Both were technically fouls, only one of them was called.

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Yossarian · Post by **Yossarian** » January 22nd, 2023, 2:17 pm

Refs quite frequently will verbally tell players to get out of the key. It is not uncommon for refs to tell players to keep their hands off guys, get out of the key, and stuff like this a lot during games. Walking up to a player and telling him to move is quite rare.

Dkdavis · Post by **Dkdavis** » January 22nd, 2023, 2:53 pm

I was a little triggered by the ref doing this, but someone pointed out to me. Who really wants the game decided on a 3 second violation that had no impact on the play? SJSU lost control of the ball and we made the point on the other end that gave us the victory.

Aggie84025 · Post by **Aggie84025** » January 22nd, 2023, 3:13 pm

Dkdavis wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 2:53 pm
I was a little triggered by the ref doing this, but someone pointed out to me. Who really wants the game decided on a 3 second violation that had no impact on the play? SJSU lost control of the ball and we made the point on the other end that gave us the victory.

Karma played out since he lost the ball but how about if they score on that possession and we lose the game. It was a 3 seconds violation and should have been called. Refs should not be grabbing a player to have them move from the key to prevent a violation against that player. Refs should not picking and choosing which violations to call.

Mr. Sneelock · Post by **Mr. Sneelock** » January 22nd, 2023, 3:14 pm

Dkdavis wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 2:53 pm
I was a little triggered by the ref doing this, but someone pointed out to me. Who really wants the game decided on a 3 second violation that had no impact on the play? SJSU lost control of the ball and we made the point on the other end that gave us the victory.

That was my point. Do we really want the game decided on a 3 second call 25 feet from the ball?

scotlandog · Post by **scotlandog** » January 22nd, 2023, 3:34 pm

Mr. Sneelock wrote:
Dkdavis wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 2:53 pm
I was a little triggered by the ref doing this, but someone pointed out to me. Who really wants the game decided on a 3 second violation that had no impact on the play? SJSU lost control of the ball and we made the point on the other end that gave us the victory.
That was my point. Do we really want the game decided on a 3 second call 25 feet from the ball?

You mean like Justin Beans foul at the end of the St Mary’s game with .01 seconds left to give them winning FTs instead of going to overtime? I agree we don’t want the game to finish like that and I think we all agree that it was a penalty on Bean by the rule. That call is never made at the end of a game, it was nothing.

BUT…….. that call was made against us. So I would not feel bad for other teams(SJSU in this case) when they get called for something at the end of a game. The rules don’t stop being rules based on the numbers on the clock. The rules don’t stop being rules based on a players intention to waste time on the clock. And if the crowd is too loud for him to warn that player then advantage to the home crowd.

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scotlandog · Post by **scotlandog** » January 22nd, 2023, 3:49 pm

Madmartigan wrote:To those of you think there is some big conspiracy by the MW to screw us out of games I am curious: why is the MW out to get us exactly? Would the reasons they dislike us not also equally apply to a handful of other programs in the MW like the Josers?

I’m not one to think there is a big conspiracy but I do think refs get biased against us so I will answer the question from that viewpoint.

This won’t be a popular opinion likely but I think sometimes we have certain cheers that rubs the refs wrong, like the “You Still Suck” cheer. Now I’m one of the group that started that cheer and many other cheers and I think we should probably let that one go. I think we can do better it just seems like bad sportsmanship. I think the refs take it that way and are then biased against us, especially those that routinely ref our games. I personally feel like the refs in conference games are way worse against us than neutral or away games out of conference. I don’t believe it’s the conference but the individual refs that don’t like us.

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FloridaAggie13 · Post by **FloridaAggie13** » January 22nd, 2023, 4:28 pm

Mr. Sneelock wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 3:14 pm

Dkdavis wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 2:53 pm
I was a little triggered by the ref doing this, but someone pointed out to me. Who really wants the game decided on a 3 second violation that had no impact on the play? SJSU lost control of the ball and we made the point on the other end that gave us the victory.
That was my point. Do we really want the game decided on a 3 second call 25 feet from the ball?

Then remove it from the rule book. Otherwise, we are giving officials license to choose what rules to enforce and when.

cdaAg · Post by **cdaAg** » January 22nd, 2023, 5:44 pm

Mr. Sneelock wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 3:14 pm

Dkdavis wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 2:53 pm
I was a little triggered by the ref doing this, but someone pointed out to me. Who really wants the game decided on a 3 second violation that had no impact on the play? SJSU lost control of the ball and we made the point on the other end that gave us the victory.
That was my point. Do we really want the game decided on a 3 second call 25 feet from the ball?

Personally, I'm not irritated that a 3 seconds call wasn't made in that situation. The precedent of an official purposefully stepping into live play and making physical contact with a player is not a wanted precedent. The 3-seconds violation is generally minor and at that point in the play, I have no qualms with a no-call. I have no issue with an official talking to players (in fact, I think the best officials do this consistently).

Aggiefever · Post by **Aggiefever** » January 22nd, 2023, 8:51 pm

I want to know what happened between the ref and Ashworth with 16:43 left in the 2nd half. They called it out on us and Ashworth said something and the body language of the ref looked like he wanted to fight Ashworth.

scotlandog · Post by **scotlandog** » January 22nd, 2023, 9:57 pm

Aggiefever wrote:I want to know what happened between the ref and Ashworth with 16:43 left in the 2nd half. They called it out on us and Ashworth said something and the body language of the ref looked like he wanted to fight Ashworth.

Seriously! I went and watched that and he looked like he almost was going to throw a punch at him. Arms were tense and fists clenched it looked like. Ashworth’s body language looked to be one of surprise as well after his abrupt movement towards him. Almost jumps back a little it seems. I didn’t see this live at all but I’m very shocked by this. With everything else going on with that ref in this game, this is just like the cherry on top. This is crazy.

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NVAggie · Post by **NVAggie** » January 23rd, 2023, 7:49 am

I'm honestly torn on this one. I can see both sides of the issue. I don't really want that to be called at the end of the game, but having a ref walk out that far onto the court to direct a player isn't good either. I'm glad it worked out for us in the end. I'm actually more upset that Shulga left 5 seconds on the clock at the end. That was a wide open look from a very good shooter.

FeartheFro · Post by **FeartheFro** » January 23rd, 2023, 8:13 am

NVAggie wrote:I'm honestly torn on this one. I can see both sides of the issue. I don't really want that to be called at the end of the game, but having a ref walk out that far onto the court to direct a player isn't good either. I'm glad it worked out for us in the end. I'm actually more upset that Shulga left 5 seconds on the clock at the end. That was a wide open look from a very good shooter.

Surprised this hasn’t been talked about more. Is this on the coach or Shulga? Anyone that knows anything about being tied and no shot clock knows that you go for the win or overtime. You don’t do what Shulga did. No excuse (unless he was given this direction from Coach and if that’s the case we have more serious issues).

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FloridaAggie13 · Post by **FloridaAggie13** » January 23rd, 2023, 8:32 am

NVAggie wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 7:49 am
I'm honestly torn on this one. I can see both sides of the issue. I don't really want that to be called at the end of the game, but having a ref walk out that far onto the court to direct a player isn't good either. I'm glad it worked out for us in the end. I'm actually more upset that Shulga left 5 seconds on the clock at the end. That was a wide open look from a very good shooter.

My guess is it's on Shulga for starting his drive too early. He's been the guy with the ball at the end of the half recently, basically the same situation, and has run out of time - waiting too long - to get off a good shot, so might have been ansy this time.

I'm sure he knows this already, but I would hope he has plan A and plan B already calculated in his head so he isn't just winging it with six seconds to go.

Post by **treesap32** » January 23rd, 2023, 9:16 am

Just watched the replay. That's really jacked up. The guy was in there for 4, going on 5 seconds and the ref actually physically touched him to get him out of the key. I have never seen anything like that in all my years of watching basketball. It was the same ref that came at Ashworth at the 16:40 second half described above. I don't recognize the ref. Is he new this year?

Replay can be seen here: https://utahstateaggies.com/watch/ (Click On Demand)

Aggie84025 · Post by **Aggie84025** » January 23rd, 2023, 9:24 am

FeartheFro wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 8:13 am

NVAggie wrote:I'm honestly torn on this one. I can see both sides of the issue. I don't really want that to be called at the end of the game, but having a ref walk out that far onto the court to direct a player isn't good either. I'm glad it worked out for us in the end. I'm actually more upset that Shulga left 5 seconds on the clock at the end. That was a wide open look from a very good shooter.
Surprised this hasn’t been talked about more. Is this on the coach or Shulga? Anyone that knows anything about being tied and no shot clock knows that you go for the win or overtime. You don’t do what Shulga did. No excuse (unless he was given this direction from Coach and if that’s the case we have more serious issues).

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I am sure he was given the direction to go around 6 seconds which he went around 10 seconds. While he went early the play call they drew up was perfect. Shulga had a really great drive and was able to get fouled and almost made the contested lay up. At times our end of half situations have been really bad in terms of getting good shots and not really run any set plays so I am glad they were aggressive rather than just jacking up a contested 3 at the end of regulation. Obviously i wish he would have started the play a little later but it worked out just fine.

GUS · Post by **GUS** » January 23rd, 2023, 9:52 am

treesap32 wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 9:16 am
Just watched the replay. That's really jacked up. The guy was in there for 4, going on 5 seconds and the ref actually physically touched him to get him out of the key. I have never seen anything like that in all my years of watching basketball. It was the same ref that came at Ashworth at the 16:40 second half described above. I don't recognize the ref. Is he new this year?

Replay can be seen here: https://utahstateaggies.com/watch/ (Click On Demand)

That's really amateurish of that ref to go in and physically move him out. I don't care what point in the game it happened, it's uncalled for.

FloridaAggie13 · Post by **FloridaAggie13** » January 23rd, 2023, 10:00 am

What's next? Do over's on missed layups? Telling the ball handler he's out of bounds and needs to get back inbounds right away?

Post by **aggies22** » January 23rd, 2023, 10:14 am

FloridaAggie13 wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 10:00 am
What's next? Do over's on missed layups? Telling the ball handler he's out of bounds and needs to get back inbounds right away?

Why not allow 4 steps to the basket instead of two?

Aggie84025 · Post by **Aggie84025** » January 23rd, 2023, 10:30 am

aggies22 wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 10:14 am

FloridaAggie13 wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 10:00 am
What's next? Do over's on missed layups? Telling the ball handler he's out of bounds and needs to get back inbounds right away?
Why not allow 4 steps to the basket instead of two?

Agreed, these are college players and refs who have been doing this for years. This is not 3rd grade jr. jazz where not many calls are made as they are just learning the sport. I am surprised by the number of posters who are absolutely fine with a ref pulling someone out of the key so they don't call a 3 seconds violation. There are rules to the game and the refs need to follow them. It is one thing for a ref to just miss the call because they did not see it and another when they purposely move a player to avoid calling it.

Gidbob · Post by **Gidbob** » January 23rd, 2023, 1:08 pm

scotlandog wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 3:49 pm

Madmartigan wrote:To those of you think there is some big conspiracy by the MW to screw us out of games I am curious: why is the MW out to get us exactly? Would the reasons they dislike us not also equally apply to a handful of other programs in the MW like the Josers?
I’m not one to think there is a big conspiracy but I do think refs get biased against us so I will answer the question from that viewpoint.

This won’t be a popular opinion likely but I think sometimes we have certain cheers that rubs the refs wrong, like the “You Still Suck” cheer. Now I’m one of the group that started that cheer and many other cheers and I think we should probably let that one go. I think we can do better it just seems like bad sportsmanship. I think the refs take it that way and are then biased against us, especially those that routinely ref our games. I personally feel like the refs in conference games are way worse against us than neutral or away games out of conference. I don’t believe it’s the conference but the individual refs that don’t like us.

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By "you still suck" do you mean "ref you suck"? Chanting you still suck after a made free throw is super tame. Idk why refs would be all that bothered by that.

jwaggie · Post by **jwaggie** » January 23rd, 2023, 1:10 pm

FloridaAggie13 wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 8:32 am

NVAggie wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 7:49 am
I'm honestly torn on this one. I can see both sides of the issue. I don't really want that to be called at the end of the game, but having a ref walk out that far onto the court to direct a player isn't good either. I'm glad it worked out for us in the end. I'm actually more upset that Shulga left 5 seconds on the clock at the end. That was a wide open look from a very good shooter.
My guess is it's on Shulga for starting his drive too early. He's been the guy with the ball at the end of the half recently, basically the same situation, and has run out of time - waiting too long - to get off a good shot, so might have been ansy this time.

I'm sure he knows this already, but I would hope he has plan A and plan B already calculated in his head so he isn't just winging it with six seconds to go.

I think Scotty or Spencer asked Coach Odom about his philosophy on end of game situations and he said he generally tells them to go with about 8 seconds left.

Bank Shot · Post by **Bank Shot** » January 23rd, 2023, 2:03 pm

jwaggie wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 1:10 pm

FloridaAggie13 wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 8:32 am

NVAggie wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 7:49 am
I'm honestly torn on this one. I can see both sides of the issue. I don't really want that to be called at the end of the game, but having a ref walk out that far onto the court to direct a player isn't good either. I'm glad it worked out for us in the end. I'm actually more upset that Shulga left 5 seconds on the clock at the end. That was a wide open look from a very good shooter.
My guess is it's on Shulga for starting his drive too early. He's been the guy with the ball at the end of the half recently, basically the same situation, and has run out of time - waiting too long - to get off a good shot, so might have been ansy this time.

I'm sure he knows this already, but I would hope he has plan A and plan B already calculated in his head so he isn't just winging it with six seconds to go.
I think Scotty or Spencer asked Coach Odom about his philosophy on end of game situations and he said he generally tells them to go with about 8 seconds left.

That sounds about right. You want a little time left for an offensive rebound and put back. I'm sure SJSU didn't want to foul but it almost worked out better for them.

gomretat · Post by **gomretat** » January 23rd, 2023, 2:14 pm

aggies22 wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 10:14 am

FloridaAggie13 wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 10:00 am
What's next? Do over's on missed layups? Telling the ball handler he's out of bounds and needs to get back inbounds right away?
Why not allow 4 steps to the basket instead of two?

I get the argument that a rule is a rule and if there is a violation you call it, regardless of the clock. I have always been bothered by refs that swallow the whistle at the end of game because they don't want to determine the result. I also really like refs that talk to players and give them a heads up on stuff they are watching for. That being said, making calls that have no impact on the play makes no sense to me, particularly at the end of games. 4 steps or stepping out of bounds with the ball are completely different for me than a 3 second call when the guy just seemed like he spaced it and it had on impact on the play. My guess is the reason the ref approached him instead of talking is because the Spectrum was so loud. I know that I couldn't even talk to my wife at that point because of how loud it was.

hipsterdoofus21 · Post by **hipsterdoofus21** » January 23rd, 2023, 3:32 pm

Ever notice how many refs are short? Now couple that with being a ginger.

tipitup · Post by **tipitup** » January 23rd, 2023, 3:56 pm

hipsterdoofus21 wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 3:32 pm
Ever notice how many refs are short? Now couple that with being a ginger.

sorry but he wasn't short, but good thought

SectionBAggie · Post by **SectionBAggie** » January 23rd, 2023, 4:03 pm

Aggiefever wrote: ↑
January 22nd, 2023, 8:51 pm
I want to know what happened between the ref and Ashworth with 16:43 left in the 2nd half. They called it out on us and Ashworth said something and the body language of the ref looked like he wanted to fight Ashworth.

That was preceded by another exchange at 18:51 where the ref was flailing his arms at Ashworth during an out-of-bounds play.

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