This article has been the focus of local sports talk radio today - causing some pretty intense conversation. Certainly not good publicity for the Y. Has this been mentioned on Utah radio today?

This is a dumb article...

the honor code violations that come to light almost always involve student-athletes.

Of course! No honor code violation comes to light for Joey Noname Sophomore accounting student and closet homosexual. No one cares, so why would it come to light?

And statements like these don't say much for their research:

It's impossible to know how many students disobey BYU's honor code...

and

These are conservative numbers, compiled from media reports and interviews. In several cases, we could not confirm an honor code violation. In other cases, we could not establish the race or ethnicity of the athlete involved. We excluded those cases from our tally.

I can't stand BYU but there needs to be better work done on checking into this before I'll care.

Wow, that is pretty damaging to BYU's reputation. They make a pretty good case, but I would like to see some hard statistics to back them up. Unfortunately, we will probably never see those statistics.

Aglicious: There is a lot about that article that is questionable, including the lack of documentation and what appears to
be a lot of hearsay. I don't conclude that it has no credibility, or that it is entirely credible. But I will answer one of your
questions, that being whether it was discussed on Utah radio today. Uh, yeah, ad nauseum. On my way into Salt Lake
today, it was the topic of discussion the entire time. After an hour and a half away from the radio doing what I went to do,
I got back in the car and it continued to be the topic of discussion. At least on 1280.

Great credibility or not, it is still very damaging to BYU's reputation.

One of the guys who wrote it is a former BYU faculty member who was dismissed for?

A source with an obvious axe to grind is questionable at best.

cval wrote:One of the guys who wrote it is a former BYU faculty member who was dismissed for?

A source with an obvious axe to grind is questionable at best.

he wrote a book "black and mormon", what possibly could his motives be?

unfortunately we wont be able to capitolize on it because of guilt by association. Utah State is seen by many outsiders as a school much like BYU is, even though we're a public school w/o an honor code or draconian rules like BYU has. We've already been accoused of being that school that kicked it's Black player off the team for permarital sex, even though it was the parochial school down south, that and our HC is not LDS. Davis should still consider transfering IMHO.

WillRogersAggie wrote:

cval wrote:One of the guys who wrote it is a former BYU faculty member who was dismissed for?

A source with an obvious axe to grind is questionable at best.

he wrote a book "black and mormon", what possibly could his motives be?

Exactly. This is a one-sided article that is REALLY going after the LDS religion more than BYU athletics. Let's hear the other side of the story. Then I can decide for myself. As the article is written....what a waste of time from bitter bitter people. What do you THINK a player kicked out of BYU on charges of gang rape is going to say? What do you think a professor who was kicked out of BYU is going to write? Not to go all Charlie on you, but "Duh".

But to the question of the original topic.....it's been on sports talk radio up here since the second it came out yesterday afternoon. BORING.

I am honestly shocked this topic took this long to show up over here. I almost brought it up yesterday in the Sandbox since that is where it belongs....I have no idea what this has to do with USU athletics.

This article is ridiculous. total hearsay.

"It's not like it's being put in your face every day. After my first meeting with the coaches, the honor code was never mentioned. … I was 100 percent deceived. One hundred percent."

Yeah right. the honor code is in your face EVERYWHERE.

"Girls were there, and sex was going on," Allen says. "It was an orgy going on. School didn't know about it and coaches didn't know about it. Beer and hard liquor were there.

If this is true, which I doubt, I would be willing to bet most of the people there were not BYU students. Completely ridiculous.

and how did they get those stats? byu is a private school. they don't just release a list of violations with
Name:
Violation:
Race:
How we deceived them:


I'm all for byu hating, but only with real reasons. this article makes me mad.

QuackAttackAggie wrote: I'm all for byu hating, but only with real reasons. this article makes me mad.

The most maddening thing about this article is that it has us attacking it ergo defending BYU... that makes me most angry.

It makes you mad because the "BYU is racist" becomes a "Mormons are racist" and that mud gets on you.

Eh. Let it go. We're not BYU. People smart enough to tell the difference between a Mormon and BYU won't throw the mud. People who aren't that smart are probably going to throw mud anyway.

AggieAthletics wrote:

WillRogersAggie wrote:

cval wrote:One of the guys who wrote it is a former BYU faculty member who was dismissed for?

A source with an obvious axe to grind is questionable at best.

he wrote a book "black and mormon", what possibly could his motives be?

Exactly. This is a one-sided article that is REALLY going after the LDS religion more than BYU athletics. Let's hear the other side of the story. Then I can decide for myself. As the article is written....what a waste of time from bitter bitter people. What do you THINK a player kicked out of BYU on charges of gang rape is going to say? What do you think a professor who was kicked out of BYU is going to write? Not to go all Charlie on you, but "Duh".

But to the question of the original topic.....it's been on sports talk radio up here since the second it came out yesterday afternoon. BORING.

I am honestly shocked this topic took this long to show up over here. I almost brought it up yesterday in the Sandbox since that is where it belongs....I have no idea what this has to do with USU athletics.

BINGO!!!

it has to do with general sports, so i dont see the problem.

Lame article. Obviously biased and written by someone with a grudge and agenda. I'm sure there is a little truth to it but not as much as he is portraying.

My only problem with the BYU honor code, when it relates to sports, is it takes an issue that should be a confidential matter between a church member and his/her bishop (or other religious leader if non-LDS) and turns it into a national talk show debate. How can an LDS student, or student athlete, at BYU feel like they can confide in their bishop if this can be the result?

swordsman1989 wrote:My only problem with the BYU honor code, when it relates to sports, is it takes an issue that should be a confidential matter between a church member and his/her bishop (or other religious leader if non-LDS) and turns it into a national talk show debate. How can an LDS student, or student athlete, at BYU feel like they can confide in their bishop if this can be the result?

Media: Why isn't Brandon Davies playing? Is he hurt?

BYU: We can't tell you why he isn't playing.

or

Media: Why isn't Brandon Davies playing? Is he hurt?

BYU: No, be broke the honor code which he signed to live by.

The media ran with it from there....BYU didn't turn it into a national talk show debate, the media did.

I guess I just don't understand what you think BYU should have done......? Are you saying the Bishop/leader ratted the kid out?

How should BYU have handled Davie's situation?

AggieAthletics wrote: How should BYU have handled Davie's situation?

Why not just say he is suspended for an undisclosed "violation of team rules," which is being handled internally, and leave it at that? That would leave the possibilities of academic problems, missing practice or team meetings, honor code issues, or any number of other issues as possible reasons for the suspension, and BYU could have refused to comment any more about it if they had left it vague like that. Maybe the media eventually would have found out anyway, and the end result may not have been different, but BYU chose to put its Honor Code (and Davies' specific conduct in violation thereof) front and center in the media by announcing that his suspension was the result of an HC violation.

Just remember, an honor code violation could be as simple as getting home late, or not attending church. Davies and crew have to take some responsibility for the rest of the story getting leaked out.

AggieAthletics wrote:

swordsman1989 wrote:My only problem with the BYU honor code, when it relates to sports, is it takes an issue that should be a confidential matter between a church member and his/her bishop (or other religious leader if non-LDS) and turns it into a national talk show debate. How can an LDS student, or student athlete, at BYU feel like they can confide in their bishop if this can be the result?

Media: Why isn't Brandon Davies playing? Is he hurt?

BYU: We can't tell you why he isn't playing.

or

Media: Why isn't Brandon Davies playing? Is he hurt?

BYU: No, be broke the honor code which he signed to live by.

The media ran with it from there....BYU didn't turn it into a national talk show debate, the media did.

I guess I just don't understand what you think BYU should have done......? Are you saying the Bishop/leader ratted the kid out?

How should BYU have handled Davie's situation?

Exactly as someone else pointed out - suspended due to an undisclosed violation of team rules. Happens all the time in college athletics. By announcing to the world that it was an honor code violation, unique to BYU, it raised the media interest to a fever pitch. I am not saying that this guy's Bishop (if he is LDS) ratted him out to the media. But it is certainly within reason to suspect that his Bishop took a confidential matter to the powers that be at BYU, who then in turn told the college sports world. Honor code or not, any church member should have a reasonable expectation that confidential matters will officially remain confidential, not officially spread to the press.

When you enroll at byu you do so with the understanding that the honor code is a part of that enrollment. If you break that agreement it has to do with you and the school and it should not involve your bishop, unless for reasons between you and your bishop are needed in the violation. If it wasn't march madness and byu being ranked possibly a #1 seed, no one would of cared as much or made it out to be such a big problem. No one seemed to talk about Harvey Unga, byu all time leading rusher, not playing his senior year because of a problem similar to Davies. Other than Unga tried to manipulate the system by with drawing from school and trying to re enroll, this was hardly mentioned in comparison to the Davies story.

aggiefan444 wrote:When you enroll at byu you do so with the understanding that the honor code is a part of that enrollment. If you break that agreement it has to do with you and the school and it should not involve your bishop, unless for reasons between you and your bishop are needed in the violation. If it wasn't march madness and byu being ranked possibly a #1 seed, no one would of cared as much or made it out to be such a big problem. No one seemed to talk about Harvey Unga, byu all time leading rusher, not playing his senior year because of a problem similar to Davies. Other than Unga tried to manipulate the system by with drawing from school and trying to re enroll, this was hardly mentioned in comparison to the Davies story.

Harvey Unga is also a "minority" so adding his story to the story being discussed would have furthered the perception of byu being a racist institution. The majority of mormons are white, and grew up living in the mormon culture. that being the case, you learn how to work in the shadows and not get caught doing things unacceptable in the culture. Non mormons don't have that luxury of growing up practicing how to avoid punishment in the religion. In fact it is the opposite. Non mormon guys brag about their sexual conquests, mormon guys try to keep it as hush hush as possible. Of course the non mormon athletes doing the same things as the mormon athletes will get caught more, if simply for the reason they don't know how to "play the game."

Very good point Fat, very true. In the article it also mentioned that Polys were higher on the perceived good list vs. Blacks.

WillRogersAggie wrote:Very good point Fat, very true. In the article it also mentioned that Polys were higher on the perceived good list vs. Blacks.

I can see why black players would think that. Anybody familiar with mormon culture knows that mormons as a whole love polynesians. Just look at how many threads on this board and the old scoutustate board give praise to Gary for bringing in so many polys. Has there ever been a thread about how awesome it is we're getting more black players on the team? Not saying its wrong or right, just saying if you're a black player seeing the same things I'm seeing, I'm not surprised there is a feeling of black players being lower on the totem pole than polynesian players.

I will agree that there was probably alot of bias in the story, but c'mon guys, everybody knows byu is a shady, double standard, hypocritical institution. This story shouldn't shock anybody.

FatAg wrote:

WillRogersAggie wrote:Very good point Fat, very true. In the article it also mentioned that Polys were higher on the perceived good list vs. Blacks.

I can see why black players would think that. Anybody familiar with mormon culture knows that mormons as a whole love polynesians. Just look at how many threads on this board and the old scoutustate board give praise to Gary for bringing in so many polys. Has there ever been a thread about how awesome it is we're getting more black players on the team? Not saying its wrong or right, just saying if you're a black player seeing the same things I'm seeing, I'm not surprised there is a feeling of black players being lower on the totem pole than polynesian players.

I will agree that there was probably alot of bias in the story, but c'mon guys, everybody knows byu is a shady, double standard, hypocritical institution. This story shouldn't shock anybody.

Off the top of my head, yes....specificaly about the recruits from Florida.

I'm pretty confident the excitement over they Polynisians had more to do with their strenth, size and finaly competing against BYU and UTAH for these athletes than ethnicity.

AggieAthletics wrote:

FatAg wrote:

WillRogersAggie wrote:Very good point Fat, very true. In the article it also mentioned that Polys were higher on the perceived good list vs. Blacks.

I can see why black players would think that. Anybody familiar with mormon culture knows that mormons as a whole love polynesians. Just look at how many threads on this board and the old scoutustate board give praise to Gary for bringing in so many polys. Has there ever been a thread about how awesome it is we're getting more black players on the team? Not saying its wrong or right, just saying if you're a black player seeing the same things I'm seeing, I'm not surprised there is a feeling of black players being lower on the totem pole than polynesian players.

I will agree that there was probably alot of bias in the story, but c'mon guys, everybody knows byu is a shady, double standard, hypocritical institution. This story shouldn't shock anybody.

Off the top of my head, yes....specificaly about the recruits from Florida.

I'm pretty confident the excitement over they Polynisians had more to do with their strenth, size and finaly competing against BYU and UTAH for these athletes than ethnicity.

Just to play devil's advocate, I know the Florida recruiting thread was there, but did it specifically say it was great the players were black? In my opinion that shows there is a difference in perception. The polynesian threads say just what you did. Its fine to come right out and enforce stereotypes like Polynesian players have strength and size. Nobody comes out and says Black players are fast and muscular, or something similar. That to me shows there is a difference in how you can talk about race in the state of utah. So right or wrong, there is a difference in perception from black players and polynesian players.

I'll get off my soapbox

The "good list" I was referring to was the perception of the ex-yBu black players on enforcement of Satan's Plan. Not athletic ability. The reason for this difference might get this taken to the sandbox, but there is a reason

Interesting reactions so far. When I initially read it I felt the same way many of you did, almost dirty for somehow feeling like I would almost defend BYU in some small manner. Even if this article is only one side of the story, the percentages are still pretty staggering.

The co-author, Darron Smith, came on the local ESPN radio affiliate in Vegas and talked about the article last week and he said the report was to basically do two things. One, to show how difficult it is to make it through an entire 4 year career at BYU as a non-member black athlete. Two, to shed some light on the kind of culture a non-member black athlete faces at BYU and the clear inequalities that come with not only being a minority racially but also religiously. He summarized that it was to basically educate potential black athlete recruits about what kind of place BYU really is and inform them that the Honor Code is much more than just some set of general school rules that exist at every institution.

The guy was pretty well spoken and mentioned he is a member of the church and is very passionate about those beliefs. He said he does occasionally get some pretty nasty hate mail, mainly from church members who obviously think BYU can do no wrong. He did stress that this article is strictly about athletes, not the general student population where the number of non-minorities with Honor Code violations probably far exceeds minorities - even percentage wise.

I think we all know the reasons why the numbers are what they are but it still leaves me wondering if Mormon white athletes are being protected, whether by other member athletes, or by the admin. Even if they are not, it's hard to argue that they have a built-in advantage to seek help through church leaders and make amends whereas non-member athletes (no matter their race) have little options.

I also completely believe the recruiting trip experiences and the slight mention of the Honor Code as if it were no big deal. Perhaps the current coaches and admin have cleaned this up a bit but I think BYU has found itself in a hard place to exist for too long now; caught in a world where they want to compete in a business that is corrupt by its very nature. I feel like they set up many of these guys for failure in hopes that they can somehow further their own status in the world of college athletics. When it's convenient or in the best interest for BYU athletics, like in the case of Davies (who is one of their own), they will be benevolent and forgiving to somehow find a way to keep them on the court or on the field. Good thing he can play ball because we all know people that have been booted for less.

Aglicious wrote:I also completely believe the recruiting trip experiences and the slight mention of the Honor Code as if it were no big deal. Perhaps the current coaches and admin have cleaned this up a bit but I think BYU has found itself in a hard place to exist for too long now; caught in a world where they want to compete in a business that is corrupt by its very nature. I feel like they set up many of these guys for failure in hopes that they can somehow further their own status in the world of college athletics. When it's convenient or in the best interest for BYU athletics, like in the case of Davies (who is one of their own), they will be benevolent and forgiving to somehow find a way to keep them on the court or on the field. Good thing he can play ball because we all know people that have been booted for less.

This describes my sentiments. BYU athletics is certainly of the world. They just need to stop living in their dream land that they can be both.

NVAggie wrote:

Aglicious wrote:I also completely believe the recruiting trip experiences and the slight mention of the Honor Code as if it were no big deal. Perhaps the current coaches and admin have cleaned this up a bit but I think BYU has found itself in a hard place to exist for too long now; caught in a world where they want to compete in a business that is corrupt by its very nature. I feel like they set up many of these guys for failure in hopes that they can somehow further their own status in the world of college athletics. When it's convenient or in the best interest for BYU athletics, like in the case of Davies (who is one of their own), they will be benevolent and forgiving to somehow find a way to keep them on the court or on the field. Good thing he can play ball because we all know people that have been booted for less.

This describes my sentiments. BYU athletics is certainly of the world. They just need to stop living in their dream land that they can be both.

'The Campus is Our World'

This article is biased crap. It is written by a professor kicked out of BYU and from sources who were all athletes who got kicked out of BYU. There was not one quote from a black player who wasn't kicked out to provide a balanced perspective. Totally biased smear job. I'm all for BYU bashing, but if you buy into this article your drinking way too much Kool Aid.

FastAggie wrote:This article is biased crap. It is written by a professor kicked out of BYU and from sources who were all athletes who got kicked out of BYU. There was not one quote from a black player who wasn't kicked out to provide a balanced perspective. Totally biased smear job. I'm all for BYU bashing, but if you buy into this article your drinking way too much Kool Aid.

racial undertones.


the quotes and percentages they use in this article, like fastaggie here points out, are so skewed it isn't real reporting.

FastAggie wrote:This article is biased crap. It is written by a professor kicked out of BYU and from sources who were all athletes who got kicked out of BYU. There was not one quote from a black player who wasn't kicked out to provide a balanced perspective. Totally biased smear job. I'm all for BYU bashing, but if you buy into this article your drinking way too much Kool Aid.

That's the problem. There are so few black players at BYU that when one is kicked out there are few options to turn to for an interview. This year BYU had Davies and Abuou.

dyedblue wrote:

FastAggie wrote:This article is biased crap. It is written by a professor kicked out of BYU and from sources who were all athletes who got kicked out of BYU. There was not one quote from a black player who wasn't kicked out to provide a balanced perspective. Totally biased smear job. I'm all for BYU bashing, but if you buy into this article your drinking way too much Kool Aid.

That's the problem. There are so few black players at BYU that when one is kicked out there are few options to turn to for an interview. This year BYU had Davies and Abuou.

I'll bet that had the interviewed Davies this year he would have spoken positively of the whole situation. If he held hard feelings against BYU he wouldn't be going back. He knew the consequences for those decisions, as did every single person on the list. Incredibly stupid article.